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Old 14th Jan 2019, 2:38 pm   #41
Refugee
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

The advantage is the light distribution along a room that is only used for a few seconds every now and again.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 7:04 pm   #42
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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I bought some lower temperature LEDs in a bathroom fitting, there was no choice. They replicate a tungsten bulb perfectly but after using 6000k fittings, they are awful in their appearance. I have since gone around fitting 6000k everywhere and I can see again!
Yes! A hundred times yes! I'm totally happy to see the back of incandescent/fluorescent/CFL "warm white" light-sources that deliver that horrid gloomy yellow light that makes everywhere look like a movie-set replicating Victorian candlelight and everyone appear to be suffering terminal jaundice.

"Halogen" filament-bulbs were a bit better - with their clear glass they let more light out but they still went sepulchrally-yellow when dimmed. 6500K dimmable LEDs are to me a revelation - I've fitted them everywhere - I can justify the cost of this on the annual energy-saving over the halogens they replace. Now I have better-than-daylight brightness at the flick of a switch - just the way it should be.

I actially have a private theory that the growth in cases of depression over the last couple of decades is partially correlated with the lowering of colour-temperature of indoor illumination.

Fluorescents, Sodium-lights, Incandescents - begone! ! You're as obsolete as rushlights and tallow candles.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 7:33 pm   #43
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

An interesting side note... I was all set to shout at my assistant for opening up the big double doors to the workshop, I could see the daylight when I approached. Then I realised that it was the 1200 x 600 LED panel that I had fitted in place of a 6' fluorescent strip that we kept breaking by raising cars into it! The light was so good, I was convinced it was daylight streaming in.

I have also bought half a dozen 600 square panels and I hang those either side of my inflatable spray booth when painting cars.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 10:37 pm   #44
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

For anyone into HF/shortwave reception, quite a few LED models of bulbs and tubes cause interference, and not necessarily the cheap and/or odd-brand types either.

It's a case of buy one and test at home or in the shack first, before buying more.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 10:47 pm   #45
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

The same is true of old-style fluorescent tubes: my parents had one in their kitchen that radiated wideband 'sharsh' across the HF bands and its effects could also be seen on their old 405-line TV. Their response to this was to say they wouldn't expect to have the kitchen light on while they were watching TV - which didn't please me as a teenage SWL!

I've found second-generation LEDs to be much quieter RF-wise than the old compact-fluorescent incandescent-bulb replacements.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 11:32 pm   #46
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

I wonder what happened to the once unfortuanately ubiquitous Fitzgerald brand, which I'm pretty sure was the last of the switch start T12 manufacturers.

I remember once being stuck in a dismal shed for 3 days with two other guys wiring hundreds of the darned things for an underlit floor at the Motor Show. I think that was some time in the early to mid 90s.

I can't remember ever seeing any Fitzgerald fitting that wasn't a T12 copper iron switch start ballast, so I don't know if they just disappeared when they were banned by regulation, or what.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 11:32 pm   #47
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

All of the 6' in my workshop are fixed to the roof with the result that the whole place reverberates at 50Hz. It's possible i would miss this if it wasn't there any more, which might explain my reluctance to replace them. That, and the fact that for 6 months of the year the warmth that they emit is useful.

The few Fitzgerald units i have are rather nasty and flimsy, whereas the Thorn units up to the mid 80's are pretty good. The end-caps are made to last. I am glad i salvaged them.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 12:12 am   #48
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Fitzgerald make LED fluorescent-lookalikes these days. I remember Fitzgerald being on Nationwide or some other 'magazine' programme. Made in Cornwall.

As for me, the 8ft's at work, which were salvaged with tubes from a large pottery they were demolishing at Meir, have used all their yellow Thorn tubes and are now on my last stock of 2.50/ea Philips daylight tubes. Once they're gone, I'll have to splash out on new fittings. I'm sure my re-use of the battens has me in carbon-credit still.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 1:23 am   #49
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

If you have problems with starting in cold weather, try wiping the glass with a wax furniture polish. It was a complete cure for my fluorescent tubes that refused to start in cold weather until the rooms/shed they were in had warmed up. I got the idea from a 1950's book on lighting that mentioned that tubes for the European market had to be silicone-coated to start reliably in the humid conditions in Europe, whereas plain glass was satisfactory in the dryer climate of North America. I couldn't find any silicone furniture polish, but Sainsbury's basic spray polish has been completely successful at providing instant starting.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 1:40 pm   #50
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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I wonder what happened to the once unfortuanately ubiquitous Fitzgerald brand, which I'm pretty sure was the last of the switch start T12 manufacturers.
Burnt in memory, our Dentist had one right above the chair!
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 2:05 pm   #51
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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As regards tubes (in iron ballast fittings) failing to strike in cold/damp weather, spraying the glass with an off the shelf silicone spray...
I recall older fluorescent tubes, where the fittings had a bayonet-end and bi-pin adaptors had to be used for newer tubes, having a thin earth-wire running the length of the glass tube on the outside. This was to get the ionisation started more readily.

On a different note, I tried replacing the 11" fluorescent tube in my photographic light-box with an LED version; it was rubbish! No nice, diffuse light, even though it's reflecting from a matte-white parabola through a white opal sheet of perspex. I tried tinfoil reflector experiments and facing the tube backwards, but nooo... Back to the fluorescent again, despite the inherent disadvantage that copying anyrhing with a shutter-speed above 1/30 sec results in a 'walking' black spot. Bog-paper attenuation does the job in this case.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 3:34 pm   #52
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Needless to say those doing lathe work have to be very careful with their choice of lighting- i understand certain LED luminaires have caused problems there though.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 4:04 pm   #53
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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Needless to say those doing lathe work have to be very careful with their choice of lighting- i understand certain LED luminaires have caused problems there though.
Dave
Really? I know that's why floors were banned in lathe workshops but I am surprised LEDs also strobe.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 5:35 pm   #54
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Really? I know that's why floors were banned in lathe workshops but I am surprised LEDs also strobe.
Depends upon whether it has any regulator driver network, I suppose.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 5:49 pm   #55
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

I can't say there's any problems here with LED strobing, my father uses his miller & lathe in a workshop lit only by LED tubes and nothing else, he has not reported anything to me.
The tubes themselves are Crompton with a built in electronic (no capacitor dropper here!) driver, power dips don't affect them either.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:15 am   #56
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Well, this thread has certainly generated some interesting comments, especially about the negative aspects of fluorescent tubes!
I've certainly never considered flicker but it seems to be a real problem for quite a few people. I certainly can't perceive flicker:- my brain processes information far too slowly for that! Anything that turns on and off 50 times a second, it just considers as 'on'!

The question of colour temperature is also interesting. For me, 4000K is as cool as I feel comfortable with. I find being in a room lit with 6000k light really horrible. I've read that sufferers of SAD need 6000K+ light, but to me it's just chill and depressing.
It's interesting that when LED lights first appeared, they were very cool white. Most people hated them and manufacturers rapidly developed warm white ones. Currently, for domestic lighting, warm white versions seem easier to obtain that cool white.

'Daylight' fluorescent tubes have always been available but were never popular for general use- people just didn't like them which is why 3500K became the standard white for years!

I agree that the whole CFL thing was utterly horrible. We were forced into them on the basis of energy efficiency, but I'm sure if you take the manufacturing costs, toxic materials, almost universal disposal into landfill and often very short lifespan into account, then we would have been much better sticking to incandescent until LED's came along!

When I started this thread, I was really considering commercial rather than domestic installations. Fluorescent has probably never been ideal for domestic environments and LED's can offer much better alternatives.

However, I still maintain that the twin 6 foot fitting running with a high frequency (electronic) ballast fitted with the latest generation of tri-phosphor tubes is a very fine thing!

There are very low losses from electronic ballasts:- they run pretty cool as opposed to iron ones. 50Hz flicker should be eliminated. A 70W tube is rated at 6300 lumen when new, which will stabilise at 6000 lumens once it has run for 1000 hours or so. So a twin fitting is 12,000 lumens. LED's appear to be more efficient, but only because they are directional. However, the multi- directional aspect of fluorescent, means the light is reflected from other surfaces and so tends to reduce shadows. By comparison, a 6000 lumen LED fitting is rated at 60W, so hardly a step change in efficiency!

In 2003, I installed about 30 6' twin high frequency fittings in a factory. They were actually made by 'Fitzgerald' and were nice units and well made. They had proper end caps rather than the 'twist the whole tube' type. They have been great and lamp life has been very good. They are now starting to have ballast failures. They have 'Philips' ballasts which suffer from dry joints (shades of the G11) on the input choke which causes a PCB burn up. However, I calculate that in that time they have done 32,000 hours of use!!
As electronic ballasts are readily available and a 'standard' item, I can just change them for new ones. That certainly won't be the case with LED fittings- the whole thing will need to be changed.
Interestingly, I've just changed the tubes in one of these fittings that was in an inaccessible location. They were the original 'Fitzgerald' branded tubes and were still working, although rather dim after 32,000 hours!!

The 8' tube was really good when it was in it's original 125W format. After it was down rated to 100W, it was always dull and gloomy. I've still got a couple of 125W twin units in my workshop and they give very good light.

I'm certainly not saying LED is a bad thing and obviously it will be the future, but I've spent my whole life loving fluorescent so you can hardly expect me to transfer my allegiance overnight!

All the best
Nick
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:56 am   #57
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

This is the day after tomorrow for me; LED tubes haven't even arrived in the local hardware yet!
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 1:16 am   #58
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

30,000 hours would be the average life for electronic ballasts.
With them running on HF, there is no noticable flicker, plus they will start up pretty much instant.
LED tubes nowadays do not shine straight down, they are yester-year's generation, the new type have a beam in the region of 300 degrees.
Sue, I'm surprised they haven't made an appearance at your end yet, they have been here for a number of years now.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 7:45 am   #59
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
Needless to say those doing lathe work have to be very careful with their choice of lighting- i understand certain LED luminaires have caused problems there though.
Dave
I noticed a slight strobing effect when using my Myford lathe, not enough to cause any problems but I replaced the mains LED spotlight which shines on the chuck with a 12VDC one and it's OK now.

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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:24 am   #60
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

My CNC lathe has a lamp, I'm not sure what type, inside the cabinet. As the chuck comes up to speed it appears to be stationary, run backwards etc. There is no danger though as the cabinet door has an electro-mechanical interlock and cannot be opened with machine running.
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