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Old 10th Feb 2019, 8:51 pm   #1
Pmark34
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Default Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Hi all
Was wondering if any of you clever people out there had come across one of these, A Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter. Believe it to be a 110v DC unit from the circuit diagram. Has a date of 1932 on the data plate. the only thing I can find close to it is a Crypto battery charger for charging accumulator cells. Has F, L, A on one set of terminals & S1, S2 on the other set, Myself & a friend have been researching it over the last few weeks & believe F,L,A are the input possibly from a Face Plate starter. S1,S2 to be the output voltage which according to the data plate this is also 110v, It has a commutater at one end of the shaft & slip rings at the other, which strangely are cast iron. There are a few odd things with the data plate .-
1, The makers name has been scratched off (Lancashire Dynamo & Crypto joined together in 1932 possible reason?)
2,On the secondary part of the plate it has 50 PER ,cant find out what PER means is it like Hz ie the 50.
Look forward to any thoughts you may have on it.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 9:21 pm   #2
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Seems similar to that thing Doz [Andy Doswell] pulled out of that Spitfire a little while ago.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 10:15 pm   #3
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

F, L and A may represent Field coil, Live and Armature.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 11:26 pm   #4
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

A couple of years ago I repaired an electric motor (1/4HP, 230v single phase) for a pal. Only worn out bushes, but a "strange" motor overall. I may have posted about it here, can't remember.
It just says to me that they made some odd stuff. Odd or not, it WORKS.
Les.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 11:33 pm   #5
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

This is a normal rotary converter that produces 110V 50Hz AC from 110V DC.

L= Line, F= (shunt) field, A = Armature.
S1, S2 = secondary i.e. output winding.
Per = periods = cycles = Hz

It would typically have been used for supplying AC-only equipment where the mains or on-site generation was DC, or from a battery bank. I have a number of similar units that were used for this purpose, of various voltages. The nearest modern equivalent would be something like a PV (solar) inverter, powering domestic loads from DC solar cells.

L, D & C did make a lot of battery charging sets, some of which were interesting and now very scarce. Where the mains were DC, a DC-DC rotary was needed. Where AC, options included an induction-start AC-DC rotary, a motor-generator set, or a synchronous rotary commutator which looks similar but doesn't convert the power, only rectifies it. Obviously this unit goes the other way, producing AC from DC. The firm also made general purpose motors, dynamos and alternators.

One other application of these units in the early 1930s that was often 110V DC to 110V AC was to power early cinema sound equipment. 110V DC was often available from the arc supply, and much of the sound equipment was imported from the US and was 110V as standard. However, it was also 60Hz and the rotaries likewise, so this unit was unlilkely to have been for that purpose.

Have you tested the windings / insulation resistance yet? 110V machines are normally pretty robust so hopefully it will all measure OK. If you want to run it from rectified mains, you can start it with a variac on the AC side.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 12:50 am   #6
Boater Sam
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Possibly made by Lancs. Dynamo in Stockport?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 1:10 am   #7
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

I believe small units like this were made at what was originally Crypto's works in Acton Lane, Willesden, London. The main factory was in Trafford Park, I'm not familiar with what they did in Stockport.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 2:35 pm   #8
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Lucien
Fantastic information thank you, Do you think this is to provide an AC out put even though it has +& - shown on the output terminals?
The field windings test ok giving about 60 ohms each, not had chance to test the rest yet still cleaning it up.
Have added couple more pictures one of what we think the internal wiring is and one of what the circuit diagram shows as far as I can tell.
As shown on the first drawing the wires from F and L to the coils have come off (mouse I think) so we don't the polarity of the connections if you have any thoughts.
looking into running it from a 230/110v 3kva transformer through a 150A full bridge rectifier.
hoping to get the slip rings skimmed on a friends lathe. Have you any thoughts on why they might be cast iron slip rings & not brass.

Many thanks,
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 12:10 am   #9
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Quote:
Do you think this is to provide an AC out put even though it has +& - shown on the output terminals?
Yes, because it connects via sliprings.

Quote:
Have you any thoughts on why they might be cast iron slip rings & not brass
Iron and steel were amongst the various materials used for sliprings and I think they still are, on turbo-alternator rotor field circuits for example. They have the advantage of high inherent hardness and abrasion resistance where electrical conditions allow their use.

Quote:
the wires from F and L to the coils have come off
Are the two coils still connected together or is the lead linking the two also detached? If so, see if you can identify it, otherwise you will have to test the relative polarity of the two coils with a compass (so that their magnetic fields add, rather than cancel).

If the two coils are still linked and only the leads to the terminal box are detached, then the effect of reversing them will be to reverse the rotation and possibly slightly alter / degrade the performance of the machine. Do you know which direction it had previously been running? If so, then all you need to do is reconnect the field leads so that it runs the same way. If not, we can can probably still tell from various clues (comm appearance, brush wear pattern, dirt patterns etc.) unless you've already erased them.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 1:51 am   #10
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

From the photos it looks like there is a driven or output shaft on one end.
Would that be for a cooling fan or perhaps for some kind of input/output drive so that it could be operated as a motor or generator.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 10:39 am   #11
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes View Post
Quote:
the wires from F and L to the coils have come off
Are the two coils still connected together or is the lead linking the two also detached? If so, see if you can identify it, otherwise you will have to test the relative polarity of the two coils with a compass (so that their magnetic fields add, rather than cancel).

If the two coils are still linked and only the leads to the terminal box are detached, then the effect of reversing them will be to reverse the rotation and possibly slightly alter / degrade the performance of the machine. Do you know which direction it had previously been running? If so, then all you need to do is reconnect the field leads so that it runs the same way. If not, we can can probably still tell from various clues (comm appearance, brush wear pattern, dirt patterns etc.) unless you've already erased them.
The two coils were still linked, I have taken them out now but know exactly how they came out, Don't know direction of rotation at the moment but if I look at the brushes more closely maybe I can work it out, so It might just a case of trying it and seeing what happens & then reversing the two wires from F & L if needed. The wires off the two coils at the top are very very short so are going to be fun to replace.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 10:52 am   #12
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refugee View Post
From the photos it looks like there is a driven or output shaft on one end.
Would that be for a cooling fan or perhaps for some kind of input/output drive so that it could be operated as a motor or generator.

Had wondered the same, could have possibly been connected to a little engine of some sort for if the mains (DC input) failed, I believe the old mill did have a water turbine at one point ,but the chap who gave it to me says it wasn't connected to that.
There is a fan on the shaft at the same end as the com.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 4:55 pm   #13
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

It would not have been practical to drive this with an engine, as a field regulator controlled by the AC output would be needed in place of the starter, amongst other complications. Note that it will only generate AC when there is DC present on the field. It will generate that simultaneously, but at a voltage dependent on the speed, which must be fixed to produce the correct frequency. So whereas a rotary converter's output voltage is controlled by the supply, a stand-alone AC generator needs means of regulation.

The stub shaft would probably have been fitted as standard to drive a tachometer, Isenthal regulator, exciter, or whatever a particular application might require.

If you can spin the shaft in the bearings with a brush or two in place, before you skim the comm, you will hear which is the correct direction (the quiet one!). If not, look for the marks on the trailing edges of brushes, comm segments and on the outside of the brush holders. If in doubt, post sharp pics of same.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 6:52 pm   #14
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

From memory, the "Crypto" company in question later moved on to manufacture "Crypton"-brand car-battery-chargers, timing-lights, engine-test oscilloscopes etc.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 11:31 pm   #15
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Lancashire Dynamo, Crypto- Rotary Transformer Converter

One and the same. Eventually swallowed by AEI.

Here are two similar small rotary converters in our collection. These both came from a house on an estate with its own 230V DC hydro installation dating from the early 1930s. Most loads in the house (heating, lighting & cooking) were DC, but at some point converter No. 1 was installed for loads that were AC-only. The output is 230V AC single-phase 50Hz at 1kVA continuous rating.

Converter No.2 is from the same house, where it used to power the American refrigeration unit in a larder fridge, hence the output is 115V 60Hz at around 750VA. It was controlled by the fridge thermostat so that it only ran when there was demand for the compressor.
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