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Old 9th Feb 2019, 10:11 am   #1
Chumley
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Default Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Hi - I've been dipping my toes into record player restoration over the last couple of weeks, and as a newbie I've found the posts and downloads here invaluable. Been making good progress with a Bush SRP31D and have just posted a success story with pics about rectifier replacement. https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=153857

While disposing of a tumble dryer a couple of days ago I spotted a filthy Hacker Gondolier among the waste in the container at my local recycling centre. I brought it home and washed off all the crud, then went through some basic safety tests based on advice here https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=75401 before it powered up OK.

Everything under the deck is really pretty clean, and after I'd serviced the Garrard 2025TC (paying particular attention to un-gumming the pawl, as advised on too many threads to mention!) the autochange works perfectly. The unit is very loud, and vol/treble/bass all function smoothly.

I've seen threads discussing the nature of the circuit and advising running treble high, but I think the unit's lacking a certain 'sparkle' as it were. I'm not comparing sound with modern equipment, but my SRP31D has more clarity and less fuzziness by comparison.

I wondered if the problem was the cartridge. It has an original Acos GP96-1, which looks intact. I cleaned some old fluff out from it, replaced the stylus, and adjusted the spring to give a very acceptable 3.57g tracking weight.

I'm loathe to replace the Acos with a BSR SC12M as some suggest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkUOqBhUa-E as I notice some users on here have struggled with that for negligible gain https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=117417 . (I wonder if GarrardAT6's comparison video doesn't actually give enough credit to having changed the caps on the refurbed unit v the one equipped with the Acos)?

Assuming the cartridge isn't massively out of spec, I plugged my phone into the tape in phono jack. The sound from the Gondolier was broadly similar to what I was getting playing test records on the Garrard, indicating the amp or speaker may be problematic. Adjusting EQ on my phone indicated that it was possible to create a brighter signal that suggested the speaker simply wasn't getting a balanced signal from the internal amp.

I think the sound may also be deteriorating a bit when the unit has been operating for a short while. That lead me to this thread https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=97364 and Nickthedentist's post's #3 and #5.

Would you suggest trying to change those capacitors, and given Nick's original post link is out of date would these be OK to try? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10x-Capac...m/190915805343

Pictures show general condition of the machine when I grabbed it and having given it a good clean. The interior shot gives you an idea of the state of the components. Having downloaded the service data, pic 4 shows the suspects - C6 and C7 - on the board at the back I believe.

I'm only working at a basic level with a digital multimeter btw!
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 10:52 am   #2
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

The two mustard coloured caps C6 and C7 are a Mullard ones and rarely give trouble.

Rather than guess, as a first step take some voltage readings and check them with the manual.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:13 pm   #3
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Scoring a Gondolier AND getting away with it- well done!

Given it's probably been subject to some mechanical shocks, it might be worth trying it with a different speaker- you could lash it across to the Bush (disconnect the Bush amp first) for a very direct comparison. Ordinary twin flex will do fine.....
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:26 pm   #4
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

When I service these, I always replace the two 220K ohm resistors on the top tag strip. They invariably go high and can cause other problems. I also replace the four 47uF capacitors and any other resistors that are out of spec.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:44 pm   #5
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

What a lucky find, I’ve been trying to find one for ages, well done.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 1:20 pm   #6
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

which speaker is fitted to it ( they used 2 different ones )
1, a goodmans grey in colour
2, a celestian silver in colour
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 1:34 pm   #7
Edward Huggins
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

I have posted content on various occasions here about the lack of treble presence on these otherwise excellent record players. In my experience it's due to the poor HF performance of the 102 x 6" Celestion unit usually fitted by Hacker. It genuinely deserved a twin-coned unit. There may be other issues (noting it's perilous provenance!) of course, so do take note of the good advice above. if there is sufficient rear clearance, it might be worth trying 9" x 6" (ex auto Pioneer driver with a concentric tweeter. These are usually rated a 4 ohms and can be got for next to nothing from a Car Breaker's Yard. if you can avoid replacing the Acos GP69/1 cartridge then do so. These have a slightly better frequency plot than a BSR SC12M. Even so, what a find!
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 2:13 pm   #8
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

JUst to add my opinion, after having tried external speakers and other cartridges I have come to the conclusion that it is the amplifier that is the main cause of the limited treble and lack of presence
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 2:48 pm   #9
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

I never liked the Hackers. I had 3 and got rid. They always sounded dull and the bass was bloated.Whatever I did I could not get better treble response from them. I, for one, much prefer the Bush SRP31 series

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Old 9th Feb 2019, 3:09 pm   #10
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Wow - plenty of suggestions there - thanks! I can confirm it's a Goodmans speaker, BRASSBITS (pic attached). Plan is to leave the GP96/1 in place for now given the tests I did with external signal.

The idea of running the speaker to the Bush is interesting, and it's just occurred to me I haven't tried simply taking the left channel from the Bush to the Gondolier yet to double-check any cartridge issue.

For all I know everything may be in spec, so I'll try to make some time to take some basic readings and report back. Given the claims about these having been the 'Rolls Royce' of luggable record players back in their day I'd be surprised if mine sounds as good as it could do.

I knew nothing about Gondoliers before I grabbed this one; I'd just noticed reference to them on the forums while looking for info on the Bush.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 3:11 pm   #11
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

The amp specification, more emphasis on bass than treble, some people liked this at the time. My ears need the treble these days.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 5:17 pm   #12
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Have a look at this recent thread: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=153286

Adding a small tweeter looks pretty feasible, and doesn't cost much to try - see post #7 in particular.

Good also to see a photo of the Goodmans unit in this. From what it says in the service manual, it's a different model to what they used in the Mayflower. The Mayflower uses a very similar amplifier and does not lack HF, so I've often wondered what the Mayflower speaker would sound like in a Gondolier. Sadly, I don't have a Gondolier (nor the space for one!), so I can't try that. I'm hoping to borrow one from a local friend to measure and experiment with - just too busy at the moment.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 2:41 pm   #13
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

well in the Goodmans you do have the better sounding of the 2 speakers which is a bonus
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 3:26 pm   #14
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Well done on saving one of these lovely machines from a terrible fate.

I would try feeding a CD player into the input on the back and seeing if it sounds OK then. If it does, then the amp and speaker can be given a clean bill of health.

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 3:36 pm   #15
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Both the Bush and Hacker record player phono input includes some equalisation to lift to the high freqency response prior to the effect of their tone controls. In the case of the Hacker, +3dB @ 10kHz when the treble cut is at a minimum, -16dB at max. I am not aware of any frequency response specification for the Bush.

Some commentators have mentioned the warm or old fashioned sound of the Hacker and this may be down to the speaker or possibly cartridge, either way the sound a listener enjoys is subjective and also can be affected by how good the aural response of one's ears.

What ever the rights and wrongs of comments, how the record player sounds will depend on many factors including whether the listener is on axis to the speaker, the room accoustics, possible placement of the unit on a "sound board" and if the lid is open or closed.

There is a radio input and should an AB comparison be needed, I would suggest this is a good starting point and if the source is a cd, at least the input sound can be repeated.

Chris

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 6:51 pm   #16
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Once again, grateful thanks for all the suggestions. This is an incredibly knowledgeable and friendly community!

I had to cobble together a few bits to make up suitable leads (with long enough phono plugs) to do the appropriate tests.

I didn't have a CD player handy, so just used my phone (having soldered up a stereo minijack to mono phono lead; when I tested this arrangement a couple of says ago using a chain of adaptors I hadn't been able to get such a clean connection). The result was astonishingly clear. The sound was very balanced and crisp. It looks like the amp and speaker - which appear to be all original - are working absolutely fine after all.

I'd liken the quality of the output to a small PA system, rather than a modern HiFi, which might explain why (along with its volume and bullet-proof build) the unit appears to have been popular in schools/public sector. For example, there's a Gondolier on eBay at the moment for £70 which includes paperwork saying Hacker originally supplied it to the Greater London Council. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1...r/223376059944

So is it a problem with the cartridge?

I chose a mono record and took the stereo out feed from my Bush SRP31D into the Gondolier's tape input and video'd the result on my phone - alternated by playing the same piece on the Hacker. The video is here: https://youtu.be/eayalz2MLe4

In the video there's a minor speed difference and the Gondolier/Acos is a bit louder (poss because it's L+R summed to mono). But even allowing for the fact it was recorded very simply and unscientifically with a mobile phone there's a definite difference in clarity. It's most noticeable where they switch over at 1m10s.

In the room there was much more sparkle - and thump - from the Bush/Sonotone input. It certainly didn't sound as if the unit was lacking a tweeter (but thanks for all the suggestions along those lines).

My conclusion is that the amp and speaker are operating perfectly and should be left well alone, but that the cartridge simply isn't performing.

I've attached a photo of the 'ears' on the GP96-1. Are they supposed to be as recessed into the cartridge body as this? I'd conjecture that this cartridge isn't capable of picking up the full frequencies it should do any more, even though it's theoretically better spec'd than a BSR SC12M as Edward says. Arguably it may be putting out too much in the low mids range, which is accentuating the overall boominess/fuzziness (that doesn't come across on the video) and highlighting the missing lows and highs.

As a result, I've been lucky enough to track down a boxed NOS SC12M on eBay for £19 (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g2wAA...8y/s-l1600.jpg), so I'll take a deep breath when it arrives and try to swap them over safely. Any handy tips? I understand I need to solder on new connectors (what size?) and work out which wire goes on which terminal. From this pic it looks like the best bet is to adapt the Acos mounting bracket. http://www.graham-ophones.co.uk/comm...4632054792.jpg - is that a good solution?

I'll report back when I've completed the switchover in a few days (or have come unstuck and need help!).

Laurie

Oops - forgot the pic of the ears on the Acos GP96-1 I promised.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 12:54 pm   #17
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
Have a look at this recent thread: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=153286

Adding a small tweeter looks pretty feasible, and doesn't cost much to try - see post #7 in particular.

Good also to see a photo of the Goodmans unit in this. From what it says in the service manual, it's a different model to what they used in the Mayflower. The Mayflower uses a very similar amplifier and does not lack HF, so I've often wondered what the Mayflower speaker would sound like in a Gondolier. Sadly, I don't have a Gondolier (nor the space for one!), so I can't try that. I'm hoping to borrow one from a local friend to measure and experiment with - just too busy at the moment.
what would you think about using a piezo tweeter no crossover required but Im not sure about the load values of these
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 1:37 pm   #18
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

Good work there.

I think you'll be very pleased with the BSR's performance.

The main thing to bear in mind when fitting new cartridges is that you should solder to push-on tags, and never to the cartridge pins themselves. The tags should be held in pliers, tweezers or "helping hands" while being soldered, rather than parked on the cartridge.

You may be able to persuade the existing tags to fit the BSR, no soldering required.

Note that the 2025TC's arm can be raised to a vertical position by releasing a little sprung catch at the back.

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Old 11th Feb 2019, 1:43 pm   #19
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

It might be worthwhile just examining the stylus on your Acos GP96/1 under a good glass, say, x12. The stylus pops out easily. The high compliance tubular tone arm on the 2025TC was essentially designed to exploit this type of Acos cartridge. As a result they were usually supplied to Manufacturers with the cartridge pre-fitted.
You were lucky to find a BSR SC12M at this price. However, these are not an easy fit into the narrow tone arm head of a Garrard 2025TC due to their width. About 10 months ago there was a useful Thread here showing how some adaption can be made to allow this - I've tried to search this out for you and, sorry, I failed.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 1:59 pm   #20
Chumley
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Default Re: Hacker Gondolier sound lacking presence

I'll hold fire on any tweeter decision, thanks. Hopefully not needed if the BSR cartridge performs anything like the Sonotone/Bush combination. Even with the poor video sound quality I can easily make out the HF 'two-three' beats on the record from the BSR, and they're just not audible on the Acos.

That's good news that I may not have to alter the tags! I'll see how the BSR does when it arrives and will try to take an A/B video using the same vol/treble/bass settings as the video above.
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