HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

LouiseA456 · 24th Jul 2019, 1:12 am

Hello, I’m new to this forum but have found many posts helpful in better understanding my HMV Stereomaster 2519 that I picked up a few months ago.

Until now I hadn’t made any changes or adjustments to the set up and only played records a handful of times, the sound seemed ok if a little crackly (still very listenable) but recently I have played whole LPs. In doing this I noticed that about half way through most records the record would skip. As per advice in this forum I adjusted tracking weights etc. but this didn’t improve.

I wondered if the styli was correct for the cartridge, which is labelled as sonotone 3509. The styli that was fitted when I bought it was a Garrard GDS1 which didn’t seem compatible so I ordered a new one from eBay which stated it was compatible with the 3509.

Unfortunately, since fitting this the volume on any record played is very low and the sound quality is even poorer than before meaning that I haven’t been able to use it.

I am a novice really but would like to learn more about this machine and how to get it working properly. Did I make a mistake in changing out the GDS1 styli? Is there anything I can do with the new styli to improve the volume/quality?

Many thanks in advance

'LIVEWIRE?' · 24th Jul 2019, 9:28 am

Without mentioning the name of the seller, can you tell us what type number stylus you have purchased. The correct type needed can be found in lists published by firms such as Musonic or A-V-A on line (see the 'sticky' threads at the top for further info.) Are you sure you have fitted the stylus correctly? the tip must be located between the two 'ears' at the front of the cartridge. A further possibility is that the GDS1 Cartridge may be faulty.

LouiseA456 · 24th Jul 2019, 9:59 am

The name in the listing was ‘Stylus for Garrard KS40A Sonotone 3509 GEC HMV LP/78’. I did come across a manual online for the specific Stereomaster which listed the styli required as ‘turnover type for 3509 cartridge’ which I believe is what I bought!

What I don’t understand is why it would work (reasonably) well with the GDS1 styli if it wasn’t the correct type and not at all with the new one that I bought specifically to be compatible with the sonotone 3509.

I will double check the fitting and make sure it is in properly.

Edward Huggins · 24th Jul 2019, 10:13 am

It's unlikely that any stylus will cause low volume unless it's fitted incorrectly.

Ensure the front part of the shank is seated well. The GDS1 stylus is stereo-compatible as is the stylus for the Sonotone 3509.

Techman · 24th Jul 2019, 12:48 pm

As far as I remember those Sonotone cartridges were also labeled up as Garrard for some installations, so the original stylus was likely to have been correct, although you wouldn't have known whether it was worn out or not, so it was a good idea to replace it.

Unfortunately many of those old Sonotone ceramic cartridges are going faulty due to old age and often go low or no output, particularly after being disturbed such as when fitting a replacement stylus.

You need to do the 'buzz' test which you can do with the volume turned up to full and by touching all four connections to the cartridge in turn with a small screwdriver blade you should get a loud buzz or hum through each side channel speaker when touching two of the connections. Make sure that you touch the actual metal of the connection and not just the insulation. This unit should be mains isolated, so will be safe to do this test. A loud hum will confirm that the set is working and that the fault lies within the cartridge or its connections that if they've been removed by yourself, may have been replaced incorrectly, but probably the fault will be down to a dud cartridge - the 'buzz' test will confirm.

Techman · 24th Jul 2019, 1:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouiseA456

I have played whole LPs. In doing this I noticed that about half way through most records the record would skip. As per advice in this forum I adjusted tracking weights etc. but this didn’t improve.

This indicates that the record deck mechanism needs a full service, particularly the velocity trip - read up about it and how to service it in the 'sticky' FAQ type threads in the top section of this page

Tracking weight is very important and getting it wrong can cause the issues you describe, but more likely it will end up just spoiling your records. You'll need to re-set the tracking weight if you have to fit a replacement cartridge anyway. A special balance for doing this can be bought on-line.

ben · 24th Jul 2019, 4:39 pm

The internal contacts of the Sonotone cart are likely to be tarnished, and this can cause low or no output if the cart is touched ! This is likely what happened when you changed the stylus (which, by the way, is not correct for your cart, you need the BDS /KS41B). Search the forum for my post on repairing these carts if curious.

The GDS1/GDD1/GDD2 all have plastic shank and fit the 2509 / Pinnacle PXM1H High Output type. You need the one quoted above, which has the metal shank, for medium output carts. The increased compliance may also solve the skipping.

Techman · 24th Jul 2019, 5:25 pm

It's correct that it's always those internal connections in the Sonotone, but I wasn't going to get too technical with the OP.

Is the OP going to be able to dissect the cartridge if it's faulty and clean up those connections?

Is the OP going to be able to replace the cartridge if it's faulty?

We don't yet know the 'skill' ability of the OP.

The OP is certainly getting information overload.

Do the 'buzz' test before anything else as this will give a 'yes/no' on the state of the cartridge as regards to its output - then members can take it from there regarding advice on what to do next.

LouiseA456 · 26th Jul 2019, 8:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techman

We don't yet know the 'skill' ability of the OP.

The OP is certainly getting information overload.

Do the 'buzz' test before anything else as this will give a 'yes/no' on the state of the cartridge as regards to its output - then members can take it from there regarding advice on what to do next.

Skill is certainly limited, honesty I think that if there’s anything seriously wrong with the turntable or cartridge that I’d likely be unable to fix it. I’d like to have it properly serviced but after a bit of a search online I can’t find anyone locally that advertise record player restorations/services.

I’ll do the buzz test as described but I also messaged the seller of the stylus I bought to see if I could get any help; he said that since a GDS1 was fitted previously (with plastic shank) this will have stretched the ‘fulcrum’ (unsure of correct term), on inspection that looks to be the case and actually it may be broken, if this is the case would the cartridge need replaced?

Thanks for all helpful responses so far

Edward Huggins · 26th Jul 2019, 1:47 pm

If you eventaully have to replace the cartridge (which will come with the stylus in-situ) these are still available. In terms of any work that needs to be done to your HMV, including the fitting of a new cartridge, you can use the "Repair and Restoration Services Wanted" section on the Home Page of ths Forum. This should allow you to locate help near to you.

julie_m · 26th Jul 2019, 8:06 pm

Can you get good photographs of the tonearm from above, and the cartridge from underneath and sideways on? They should help with identification. If you can retype any writing into the text of your post, so much the better.

crackle · 26th Jul 2019, 9:49 pm

The Sonotone 3509 has a tendency for the yoke (not sure of the correct term) the stylus rests in to go hard, crack or crumble away if disturbed.

Mike

LouiseA456 · 29th Jul 2019, 8:41 pm

Fairly convinced that this is what has happened, on closer inspection it looks like it’s snapped/loose and there is definitely a ‘buzz’ coming from the speakers so doesn’t seem to be an issue with the connections.

I understand then that a new cartridge would be needed, given my limited skill is this something I would be unable to do?

Thanks all

Edward Huggins · 30th Jul 2019, 10:18 am

As previously advised to you, it's still possible to buy a replacement cartridge.

But you might find the fitting of this somewhat fiddly as 4 delicate connectors have to be removed from the old cartridge, the old cartridge removed, then the new one fitted and those 4 connectors pushed back on to the correct LH and RH pin locations. Always best to use tweezers.

If I lived 350 miles nearer, I'd happily do this for you! Hoping you can find someone nearby and, again, as already suggested, you might be able to search for a Member from this forum.

LouiseA456 · 30th Jul 2019, 2:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

As previously advised to you, it's still possible to buy a replacement cartridge.

If it’s a case of fitting the 4 connectors I think I should be able to (very carefully) do that, I did post in the wanted section but haven’t had any responses as yet. However I have come up against another issue!

I’m trying to find a replacement for the sonotone 3509 cartridge but cannot find one online. Is there another suitable cartridge that could be used?

Edward Huggins · 30th Jul 2019, 4:28 pm

The Sonotone 3059 on ebay I had in mind, has just sold for £34-00. There is another, but it's the 3059 M version which is Mono and not suitable.
Keep searching for the 3059 or a Garrard KS40.
If all else fails a BSR SC11M or SC12H will do.
The wire colours on your BSR deck are most likely to be Red (goes to RH+ pin on cartridge) White (LH+) Blue (LH-) and Green (RH-).

24th Jul 2019, 1:12 am	#1
LouiseA456 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Dundee, Scotland, UK. Posts: 6	HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping Hello, I’m new to this forum but have found many posts helpful in better understanding my HMV Stereomaster 2519 that I picked up a few months ago. Until now I hadn’t made any changes or adjustments to the set up and only played records a handful of times, the sound seemed ok if a little crackly (still very listenable) but recently I have played whole LPs. In doing this I noticed that about half way through most records the record would skip. As per advice in this forum I adjusted tracking weights etc. but this didn’t improve. I wondered if the styli was correct for the cartridge, which is labelled as sonotone 3509. The styli that was fitted when I bought it was a Garrard GDS1 which didn’t seem compatible so I ordered a new one from eBay which stated it was compatible with the 3509. Unfortunately, since fitting this the volume on any record played is very low and the sound quality is even poorer than before meaning that I haven’t been able to use it. I am a novice really but would like to learn more about this machine and how to get it working properly. Did I make a mistake in changing out the GDS1 styli? Is there anything I can do with the new styli to improve the volume/quality? Many thanks in advance

24th Jul 2019, 9:28 am	#2
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping Without mentioning the name of the seller, can you tell us what type number stylus you have purchased. The correct type needed can be found in lists published by firms such as Musonic or A-V-A on line (see the 'sticky' threads at the top for further info.) Are you sure you have fitted the stylus correctly? the tip must be located between the two 'ears' at the front of the cartridge. A further possibility is that the GDS1 Cartridge may be faulty.

24th Jul 2019, 9:59 am	#3
LouiseA456 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Dundee, Scotland, UK. Posts: 6	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping The name in the listing was ‘Stylus for Garrard KS40A Sonotone 3509 GEC HMV LP/78’. I did come across a manual online for the specific Stereomaster which listed the styli required as ‘turnover type for 3509 cartridge’ which I believe is what I bought! What I don’t understand is why it would work (reasonably) well with the GDS1 styli if it wasn’t the correct type and not at all with the new one that I bought specifically to be compatible with the sonotone 3509. I will double check the fitting and make sure it is in properly.

24th Jul 2019, 10:13 am	#4
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,326	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping It's unlikely that any stylus will cause low volume unless it's fitted incorrectly. Ensure the front part of the shank is seated well. The GDS1 stylus is stereo-compatible as is the stylus for the Sonotone 3509. __________________ Edward.

24th Jul 2019, 12:48 pm	#5
Techman Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 5,000	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping As far as I remember those Sonotone cartridges were also labeled up as Garrard for some installations, so the original stylus was likely to have been correct, although you wouldn't have known whether it was worn out or not, so it was a good idea to replace it. Unfortunately many of those old Sonotone ceramic cartridges are going faulty due to old age and often go low or no output, particularly after being disturbed such as when fitting a replacement stylus. You need to do the 'buzz' test which you can do with the volume turned up to full and by touching all four connections to the cartridge in turn with a small screwdriver blade you should get a loud buzz or hum through each side channel speaker when touching two of the connections. Make sure that you touch the actual metal of the connection and not just the insulation. This unit should be mains isolated, so will be safe to do this test. A loud hum will confirm that the set is working and that the fault lies within the cartridge or its connections that if they've been removed by yourself, may have been replaced incorrectly, but probably the fault will be down to a dud cartridge - the 'buzz' test will confirm.

24th Jul 2019, 4:39 pm	#7
ben Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Madrid, Spain / Wirral, UK Posts: 7,498	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping The internal contacts of the Sonotone cart are likely to be tarnished, and this can cause low or no output if the cart is touched ! This is likely what happened when you changed the stylus (which, by the way, is not correct for your cart, you need the BDS /KS41B). Search the forum for my post on repairing these carts if curious. The GDS1/GDD1/GDD2 all have plastic shank and fit the 2509 / Pinnacle PXM1H High Output type. You need the one quoted above, which has the metal shank, for medium output carts. The increased compliance may also solve the skipping. __________________ Regards, Ben.

24th Jul 2019, 5:25 pm	#8
Techman Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 5,000	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping It's correct that it's always those internal connections in the Sonotone, but I wasn't going to get too technical with the OP. Is the OP going to be able to dissect the cartridge if it's faulty and clean up those connections? Is the OP going to be able to replace the cartridge if it's faulty? We don't yet know the 'skill' ability of the OP. The OP is certainly getting information overload. Do the 'buzz' test before anything else as this will give a 'yes/no' on the state of the cartridge as regards to its output - then members can take it from there regarding advice on what to do next.

26th Jul 2019, 1:47 pm	#10
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,326	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping If you eventaully have to replace the cartridge (which will come with the stylus in-situ) these are still available. In terms of any work that needs to be done to your HMV, including the fitting of a new cartridge, you can use the "Repair and Restoration Services Wanted" section on the Home Page of ths Forum. This should allow you to locate help near to you. __________________ Edward.

26th Jul 2019, 8:06 pm	#11
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping Can you get good photographs of the tonearm from above, and the cartridge from underneath and sideways on? They should help with identification. If you can retype any writing into the text of your post, so much the better. __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

26th Jul 2019, 9:49 pm	#12
crackle Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Basildon, Essex, UK. Posts: 4,100	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping The Sonotone 3509 has a tendency for the yoke (not sure of the correct term) the stylus rests in to go hard, crack or crumble away if disturbed. Mike

29th Jul 2019, 8:41 pm	#13
LouiseA456 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Dundee, Scotland, UK. Posts: 6	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping Fairly convinced that this is what has happened, on closer inspection it looks like it’s snapped/loose and there is definitely a ‘buzz’ coming from the speakers so doesn’t seem to be an issue with the connections. I understand then that a new cartridge would be needed, given my limited skill is this something I would be unable to do? Thanks all

30th Jul 2019, 10:18 am	#14
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,326	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping As previously advised to you, it's still possible to buy a replacement cartridge. But you might find the fitting of this somewhat fiddly as 4 delicate connectors have to be removed from the old cartridge, the old cartridge removed, then the new one fitted and those 4 connectors pushed back on to the correct LH and RH pin locations. Always best to use tweezers. If I lived 350 miles nearer, I'd happily do this for you! Hoping you can find someone nearby and, again, as already suggested, you might be able to search for a Member from this forum. __________________ Edward.

30th Jul 2019, 4:28 pm	#16
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,326	Re: HMV Stereomaster 2419 with BSR auto changer stylus issues and skipping The Sonotone 3059 on ebay I had in mind, has just sold for £34-00. There is another, but it's the 3059 M version which is Mono and not suitable. Keep searching for the 3059 or a Garrard KS40. If all else fails a BSR SC11M or SC12H will do. The wire colours on your BSR deck are most likely to be Red (goes to RH+ pin on cartridge) White (LH+) Blue (LH-) and Green (RH-). __________________ Edward.