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Old 10th Dec 2020, 5:53 pm   #41
TonyDuell
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Default Re: Softy 1

Sorry, not had a chance to look at my Softy yet. I do know where it is though, which is a good start around here...
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 9:10 pm   #42
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Default Re: Softy 1

Some info on Softy1 here.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PCW-1980-06-S-OCR.pdf (138.2 KB, 115 views)
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 12:11 am   #43
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Default Re: Softy 1

The Softy pictured in that .pdf uses a normal lever-operated ZIP socket. The one I used had a type of ZIP socket that I've never seen since.

It had a sliding 'waist' which was pushed forward/backward to lock/unlock. I think the one pictured in this thread recently had this type of ZIP.
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 2:49 am   #44
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Default Re: Softy 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ortek_service View Post
Chris & me independently bought the INS8060's off a well known auction site from Far East sellers for around £15. And although they both had a rather strange SM62534 number in small font printed in white in the corner (completely different looking the the National Semiconductor part numbering, which is also often on a bit of a slant!), they both work in his replica Mk14.
The original INS8060 in my MK14 has the same marking SM62534 and I have seen the same marking on one other MK14 pictured in one of the other threads here.
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 9:08 pm   #45
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Default Re: Softy 1

Ditto for my Issue 5. Date code of that '8060 is 849.
I have some others marked with an encouraging "A+", dated B130 (1981).
The bar across the IC, between pins 5 & 6, appeared 1982-83.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 2:50 am   #46
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Default Re: Softy 1

Thanks Tony, for letting us know you do actually know where it is at least!
- My friend Chris had asked the bygonebytes.co.uk person, but it seems he didn't know if he could find his one / if he still had it.

And I 're-discovered' my Acorn 'System 1/2/3' etc. Eurocards at home recently, that I'd originally picked up in 50p Radio Rally bags of useful IC's and only afterwards had discovered what I'd got! (They had been stripped of all the IC's from their sockets / crystals - But fortunately I found some suitably-vintage ones in my collection to restore these)


Thanks circuitboy for that PCW article scan - It pre-dates by a few years, when I first bought PCW, so I'd not seen this one before. And useful that they included the Memory-map in this that wasn't in the original manual
- Something that SoC had also neglected on the Mk14, so PE had put in their review: http://rk.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/compu...k14_pe0579.htm

The Softy memory-map looks a bit simpler than Mk14's, with all its shadows (even after address mods to system PROM) and RAM in 3 / 4 places.

It's interesting that this very first version of the Softy, also had an EPROM Emulation ability - like the later ones (So discontinued S4's can still be sought-after, as S6 'replacement' is no longer a complete stand-alone unit with this function)

But I am a bit confused that the this Softy supports the 2KB 2716, as well as the 1KB 2708, as there only seems to be 1KB of RAM to Emulate from / 1kB in memory map that the 'User-EPROM' appears to be mapped into.
So I wondered if you had to page switch the larger EPROM?
(You had to do this on ones for the original BBC Computer, as only enough RAM for a 16KB buffer, so needed to do > 27128's in 16KB blocks at a time)
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 3:20 am   #47
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I also recall Tony saying earlier in the thread he may be able scan his manual, to provide a better quality copy of the circuit etc. than bygonebytes website one.

Although I'm rather confused how many manuals there actually were for the original Softy, as seems to be several ones in the picture on this website:
https://davidfcox.typepad.com/blog/2...-computer.html
- With a surprisingly professional-looking one with colour photo on the front!

I did see that PCW review mentioned you could copy its own firmware to RAM buffer, to look at on the screen / program a new EPROM from. So a useful feature if you have a working Softy but nothing else to readout 2708.


Regarding the schematics, it seems they omitted all the pin-names on the IC's (The opposite to that originally done on the Mk14 circuit, which omitted pin numbers), then an updated circuit would be useful to have.
And if drawn-up on a modern CAD system, then half-way to making some more PCB's (I doubt there's many unbuilt-kits, with a completely blank PCB out there for this, like has turned-up for Mk14 / VDU).

Plus, if done on open-source KiCAD (I must get round to trying this), then it could be added to this collection being built up on github (not many UK ones on there yet) - See: https://www.baldengineer.com/bit-pre...ith-kicad.html and
https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/in...with-kicad/490


There seem to be even less info on the 'net about the Softy-2. But nice pic:
http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/mac...n_softy_2.html
And looks like it could be related to this product from them:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/mi...ral-menta/3695
Maybe like their quite rare 'Microdoc', Home 8-bit computer CPU-plug-in diagnostic tool that I picked-up at a rally and never seen elsewhere.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 3:36 am   #48
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Re: EPROM ZIF sockets.
I have seen some slide-lock ones, that don't have the lever - I've got some black rather than green ones, that have a white screw-turn lock at the end.
And the board in the photo on that auction site, has a strange green one - that doesn't look to be a ZIF type, fitted (maybe a ZIF-one was plugged into it, but when I tried to do this I found the ZIF socket's pins were often not round, and wouldn't fit easily into many normal DIL ones)
- As well as having mix of Red & Black sockets, whereas they were virtually all blue on one on bygonebytes webpage.


Re: INS8060
I had thought that the SM62534 on our ones was an in-house number added-later for use by another company (It looked like standard NS part number may have been covered-up on my as it appeared there were straight-edge marks either-side from where a label had been over it).
But interesting that it seems NS may have originally supplied them like this, despite it looking completely-different to their standard IC-markings on top (or even some on the underside)
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 9:09 am   #49
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Default Re: Softy 1

I hadn't seen that davidfcox site before. Thanks.
I knew the ETI Tolinka was an SC/MP project, but hadn't known it came from the Softy designer.
I haven't looked closely yet, but there are surely similarities in the Tolinka video generation circuitry.
The 'character' PROM is 74S471 256x8.
According to davidfcox, the Softy was built before, and used to develop, the chess system!
Which led to everything Dataman....
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 11:58 am   #50
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Yes that was a brilliant find as of course although ETI published the TOLINKA they did not publish the code - I wonder if we can get hold of davidfcox as that may be the only S471 and actual EPROM with the code... the rest of the blog seems to be spam with click traps for the unwary so probably abandoned.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 12:29 pm   #51
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According to the ever useful mikesarcade.com there are a couple of equivalents for that 74S471 device should an original (blank) 74S471 prove hard to find. As with previous examples, note the 'TS' at far left which signifies Tristate outputs on these devices. There may be other devices in the series which have the same 258 * 8 capacity and pinout, but have open-collector outputs.

Code:
   Signetics     MMI     TI       Harris  Raytheon  AMD      National  Intel
   ---------     ---     --       ------  --------  ---      --------  -----
TS 82S135 (45ns) 6309-1  18S22    -       -         -        -         -
   82LS135(100ns)-       28L22    -       -         -        74LS471   -
My device programmer supports the Nat Semi DM74S471, Philips/Signetics 82S135 and the TI 18S22, but not the MMI version. If Tony can find the time to extract the PROM code from his (hopefully still working) example I'd be happy to assist this project by programming a character PROM for it, if ortek can get a blank one over to me.

Unfortunately I can't do the 2708 (I believe Tony has a programmer for those). I think I would be tempted to use a 2716 in a replica, to be honest.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 12:51 pm   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Unfortunately I can't do the 2708 (I believe Tony has a programmer for those). I think I would be tempted to use a 2716 in a replica, to be honest.
Useful to know you can program some of these - how about others as the Triton needs a 74S287 (address decode IC54) and a 74S472 (Graphics character PROM - IC70)

On the Softy of course it is a bootstrap problem as it can do 2708 anyway so we would all have a way to do them (handy again as like many machines the Triton uses them... hence my interest in the Softy) but, as you say probably a later one is sensible in case it ever failed...
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 12:52 pm   #53
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..I've just noticed that there is a post by Andrew Sinclair in the 'offered' section offering some old microprocessor and related ICs, including some 2708s. It's not clear if he wants to unload everything in one go or will split.

Edit: Tim, DM74S287 I can do, DM74S472 I can do. I've only looked at the Nat Semi versions and, as usual, if there are Tesla (MH... prefix) versions available I can't do those.

I know there is a Texas version of the 287 (SN74S287) but when I look in the Texas device section of my programmer's software it is less clear, it just offers "256 * 4 - 16P" without being specific about device numbers. I'll have to track down the actual 'supported devices' list for my programmer (Hi-Lo-Systems All07A) to try to clear that up.

Last edited by SiriusHardware; 12th Dec 2020 at 1:01 pm.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 1:10 pm   #54
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I've just found the device support list and it doesn't include any Texas SN...prefix BPROMs.

In general, it has very good support for Nat Semi (DM74S... ) parts and for the Philips/Signetics (N82S...) equivalents, slightly less so for the AMD (AM27S...) equivalents.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 2:21 pm   #55
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Thanks for the info about ETI Tolinka - I hadn't initially appreciated the link, as I only first started looking at ETI back in around 1981 (when a friend at Junior school had started getting it, after I got EE & my Brother HE mags).

Yes, that Davidfcox blog only seems to have been active around 2011/12.
With recent postings all looking like it's been hijacked by spammers.
So not sure the mailto:david_f_coxc@yahoo.co.uk shown in Sep'20 is valid

Interesting that he says he got the later Softy-II and that was also INS8060 SC/MP-(II) based - As I'd expected it to have moved onto Z80 etc by then.


So I've now had a closer look into these old ETI (UK) Issues from Sep'1978 that featured this. Unfortunately, it looks like many of the scanned-ones online from back then are the rather different content Australian version.
But the whole of the Sep'78 Issue, with 1st of the 2 parts, is viewable here:

https://docplayer.net/149418833-Ches...ors-audio.html

Luckily, I do now have paper copies of these, where Computing Today magazine also started as supplement in Nov'78 (I think I got these from my friend Chris, who'd written the odd project for them)

But they only gave the complete hex-dump software listing for the 'Scan' subroutine, with flowchart for the rest of the software.
It really seemed that this 'Project' - as well as the 8080 Triton in the next issue - were just a plug for the designer's company's full kit of part of parts.
Although they do say these companies intend to make the parts available separately, so presumably you could just buy the PCB & essential (E)PROM's.

Interesting that the Triton claims to be the 'first UK designed Computer kit!)
- Presumably as Mk14 was essentially a copy of NS (Intro) Kit design, but I thought others like the SCRUMPI (The SCRUMPI-3 was featured in these issues) would qualify. Although maybe more Triton's still exist, as CfCH has details: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/d...ransam-Triton/
& ETI: https://nosher.net/archives/computer...10_001?idx=ETI

I've also just discovered a complete index someone has produced of all ETI-Issues: http://santaroga.xyz/2019/03/13/the-complete-eti-index/
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 3:19 pm   #56
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Whilst looking though the old ETI Issues, I found that the Dec'78 one - In the Computing Today (No.2) supplement - had a 2708 EPROM Programmer project. An an unusual design, based on an MM5303 UART with a 4040 Address counter clocked by the UART whenever it receives data. And all controlled by a separate 20mA current-loop interfaced computer, that does the timing. They give a short 8080/Z80 assembly listing example.

The five -12V / -5V / +5V /+12V / +26V power rails are produced from a centre tapped mains former and zener-shunt stabilisers, with a bit of capacitor-diode multiplying for the +26V.

I think I'd be tempted to just swap to a 2758 single +5V rail one - or the more common 2716 etc. as had been done on the WW 6800 Nanocomp I picked up, to simplify the PSU.

I do have the odd 2708 IC, but my old Dataman 48's don't support these.
The newer Pro-series one I have access to, needs an expensive custom (probably with small uC-code protection) adapter.
And the S3 dropped support of the 2708. The manual's block diagram shows only DAC's for 1 Vcc & 1 Vpp - All controlled by a Mask-ROM Low-power CPU, with support for only 2764 in it. So you had to load the latest 'Help ROM into it's battery-backed RAM to support the other 60 or so ones.
- Opened mine, finding it uses uPD78C06 CMOS uC (= Z80 instruction set?)
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 3:21 pm   #57
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Default Re: Softy 1

Yes a few of the projects are like that but, I suppose there was enough to get an insight into the complexity of these systems - it certainly developed my interest over the years until I finally folded and bought a ZX81 kit (I had been saving for a ZX80 one).

I will drop that e-mail a note - you never know... I did wonder - it would be great if we have a source of the Tolinka and the Softy.

Nice find on the ETI Index. You can find the full scans of most magazines online at worldradio e.g. Here is the ETI page:

https://worldradiohistory.com/ETI_Magazine.htm

I know of a few original Triton owners now but, we are always seeking more as some of the software is missing... when I get five minutes I will start a thread with what I have so far.
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 3:59 pm   #58
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Hi Sirius Hardware,

Thanks for offer of programming a PROM, but I think we should be OK for that, as my Dataman 48 supports quite a few of these.

And my friend, Chris, has the original Acorn 'System' PROM-Programmer (very similar to Mk14 one), that supports 4bit ones like the National 74S571 etc. used on these that I'd initially done some for him, and the System etc. h/w should support similar ones (maybe programming Low / High nibbles separately, with pinout adapters to their fixed pinout socket.

Unfortunately it looks like this won't easy support TI / Tesla ones, as it seems these IC's use opposite polarity programming on the data lines, with sinking rather than sourcing of the higher 10V programming supply on these lines.

However, I do have access to Dataman Pro-Series (ELNEC-rebadge) programmers, that does support some Tesla ones and I've used OK to program a different Tesla MH74S287 PROM's for a Data I/O programmer module.

For the PROM's, I do have the odd 4bit / 8bit ones that appear to be still blank. But I might be tempted to make an adapter to a more standard EPROM / Parallel EEPROM, (A pity you can't seem to get these in narrow packages to make a neat plug-in module).

But I may see if shop.tvsat.com.pl (cheaper direct than via their online auction site webshop) have any, as I'm planning to get some MH74S571's from them - along with some of the rarer TTL types they have)

It does all depend on getting contents of originals, but should be able to work out required contents if it came to it (unlike the rather more critical firmware)
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 4:32 pm   #59
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Yes, I had seen some online collections these before at americanradiohistory
- looks like this has been renamed to worldradiohistory, as has UK etc. ones
And old web addresses still shown in google now jump to new name

Along with archive.org e.g. https://archive.org/details/electronicstoday
- which seems to be a different one, but has some Computing Today issues.

And actually found I'd previously bookmarked these


I'd also recently found this archive of Computing Today magazines:
http://www.flaxcottage.com/ComputingToday/


But I had previously-seen that those USA-based websites weren't quite complete, and a quick Google for the ETI issue hadn't found them there. But I have now found the specific ones with the Tolinka at:

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Ele...1978-10-78.pdf

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Ele...1978-11-78.pdf

And a 2708 Programmer, In Computing Today No.2 supplement, next:
https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Ele...1978-12-78.pdf
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Old 12th Dec 2020, 6:29 pm   #60
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Briefly OT:

I've seriously considered buying a Dataman 48Pro2 / Elnec Beeprog2 because I think it will be the last currently available programmer of its type with such excellent support for BPROMs including the Tesla family of devices. Once they stop making them, that's probably going to be it. It's just a lot of money to be able to justify for occasional hobby / retro community use though, they only happen to be the top of the line, most expensive device programmer on the market.

At the moment I keep two old DOS PCs running mainly to keep my current old programmer running, so it would be nice to have an equivalent which works on a modern OS and via USB.
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