Colour pictures old and new

[Panrock]

I chanced upon the 'Two Ronnies' on ITV3 while exploring Freeview with my lovely new telly the other night. The picture on this recording looked a little soft but more notably, the colour looked 'different' from modern productions - hard to describe but maybe less saturated with flatter flesh tones and a slightly 'bleached' look. It certainly looked antique. I don't believe this programme was on 16mm film, I think it was taken from an early video recording.

In concrete terms, how have colour pictures changed over the last thirty years, say since the late '60s/early '70s? What is it about early colour that makes it so instantly recognisable?

I presume most of this change has been due to advancing camera technology. But has deterioration of the recordings played a part too ?

Steve

[Paul Stenning]

I know what you mean - I noticed the same sort of thing with our Open All Hours and Are You Being Served DVDs. The picture is a bit softer and the colour is 'different', but it's not really possible to say exactly. It looks older, which it is, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It is likely that the first time they have been anywhere near anything digital was when they were mastered for DVD. Up to the broadcast master everything would have been analogue.

[Dr-Watts]

I've noticed the same on my 'On the buses' & 'Please Sir' DVDs.
I can only assume that cameras have evolved like CRTs over the years ?

Regards

DW

[Stewart]

Yes, the colours on some of these older shows does seem pale now, even 80's ones like Yes Minister...although I never felt them lacking at the time they were first broadcast!

I wonder if it is those programmes that saw much editing after being recorded? Some of the early colour recordings still look stunning though - I'm thinking of some of the pop material as re-screened in things like Sounds of the Sixties... And pin sharp focus too!

[paulsherwin]

Much of this old VT will have gone through several analogue generations before being digitized, as old formats were retired. It's possible to restore a lot of the lost quality with digital processing, but this costs money so won't be done for cheap DVD issues or reruns on ITV3.

The restored 'lost episodes' of Dad's Army and Dr Who show what can be achieved from very low grade sources if the budget is there.

Paul

[Focus Diode]

I agree entirely. Some early colour VT productions put modern efforts to shame. An example of superb quality is the "Public Eye" episode, "A Fixed Address" from 1969 (on the 1969 Network DVD Box set). This episode was made as a test for the new cameras recently installed by Thames tv, but only ever transmitted in black and white- indeed on 405-lines at that!

The picture and colour quality of this episode is absolutely stunning!

I remember when BBC North East vacated their old studios in the mid 1980s they moved to new premesis with new equipment. The picture quality on "Look North" was far inferior to these eyes with the new equipment in use in the new studios than what was achieved on those EMI types from the early 70s previously used. In recent years however the quality is first class again.

It was around 1983/4 when 2" Quad VT gave way to 1" tape. This may explain why the quality seen on early '80s recordings resemble those from the 1970s.
Brian R

[Panrock]

There's also a related question (that is if it can be included in this thread?) about what the visual difference between film(TK) and VT material is.

It's usually easy to tell this difference by eye immediately, but again it's hard to put a finger on it. So what are the differences between VT and TK in strict technical terms, ie. gamma, noise level, luminance-chrominance ratio etc...?

There could be some parallels here...

Steve

[chipp1968]

Is it possible that on DVD releases of old material, that the quality is somewhat degraded as in some CD re-releases?

[arjoll]

I have noticed a wild variation in quality of older programmes rebroadcast on TV here.

For example several (probably 7 or so) years ago Prime rebroadcast a few MASH episodes which were extremely fuzzy. I'm not sure what season unfortunately. More recently TV3 has had reruns during the day and the quality has been a lot better, although certain episodes (such as the "Our Finest Hour" double episode from season 7) are very fuzzy, while episodes from season 5 are crystal clear. This could be beacuse "Our Finest Hour" was a clip show, so the clips would have been at least a generation on from the originals, but even the titles are 'fuzzy'.

I've attached some snapshots to demonstrate this - they are frame grabs from .dvr.ms files (MPEG with MCE metadata) converted to Xvid.

[Focus Diode]

Originally Posted by chipp1968

Is it possible that on dvd releases of old material that the quality is somewhat degraded as in some cd re releases ?

Not from what I've seen, at least on releases of VT material. Digital enhancement of film material can give some strange effects such as the amount of make up worn by actors in "UFO" as an example becoming more evident!

Colours can look enhanced when compared to an original transmission. The two examples are from the "Armchair Cinema" episode, "Regan". The first is from the 3-9-83 Thames tv repeat broadcast, from the original transmission print first seen in 1974. The second is from a DVD release (Digital Entertainment) which also looks to be converted into widescreen. Any future repeats would usually be from remastered prints.

Arjoll's comments are interesting too. The quality of NTSC conversions have dramatically improved in recent years and would make an interesting subject in a new thread.


Cheers,
Brian

[chipp1968]

I have a BBC re-issue of Muffin the Mule on DVD, but the picture quality is very bad, and very noticeable on a large screen set, let alone the TV22.
I know this isn't colour but I'm using it as an example.

[Focus Diode]

Haven't seen that, but surprising they haven't attempted to clean it up for a DVD release like "Doctor Who" for example. I would imagine the archive material to be of poor quality and not due to it being on the DVD format, although it might enhance it in much the same way a CD might reveal flaws not heard on vinyl.

Indeed a review I saw of the original VHS release reported it sounded as if it was raining heavily in the studio!

Back on topic: when TV stations still transmitted film from telecine episodes of programmes such as "The Sweeney" occasionally suffered from colour casts, indeed one episode txd by TTT in 1984 was decidedly lacking in green, giving a magenta tint throughout!

Some late B&W VT material looks to be shot using colour cameras switched to B&W, giving colour tints when viewed on a colour set. The Network "Special Branch Series 1 DVD "Reliable Sources" episode shows a good example of this when switching between cameras: one giving a greenish hue, the other magenta.

Paul's comments about old VT material going through several analogue generations is very true. I discovered on old "Fawlty Towers" repeat txd in the 1980s on VHS. The picture quality was considerably better than on later repeats! Can't comment on the DVD set as I've not seen it, but expect it to be up to the usual excellent high standards.

Brian R

[ppppenguin]

There is a potential problem with DVD releases. The MPEG compression system works best if noise levels are low. Noise is random data and hence not compressible; it can use up far too much of the bit budget. Since random noise levels were higher on vintage material there is usually some attemt made at noise reduction prior to remastering on DVD. If this is badly done it can lead to all sorts of horrible effects.

There is no doubt that the pictures from modern cameras are much sharper than from early colour cameras. Sometimes this is taken to excess resulting in very edgy and unpleasant pictures, almost like somebody has drawn round all the outlines. I'd rather have the smooth and slightly softer pictures from an earlier camera such as the EMI 2001. I had the opportunity to compare pictures from the queen's silver and gold jubilees, in both cases projected at very high quality on to a large screen. The silver pictures looked slightly soft but ever so smooth. Probably EMI2001 or philips LDK5 cameras. The golden pictures were mainly very harsh with heavily exaggerated edges. Varied from camera to camera and some may been due to badly equalised links from the cameras to the OB trucks.

[Aerodyne]

I have a bbc re issue of muffin the mule on dvd

The old recordings from the early 1950s would have been telerecorded (in effect, filmed straight from a 405 line screen!) - unless Muffin was produced on 16MM film, which I think is possible but unlikely, because the simple format of the programme lends itself to lower-cost live performance.
-Tony

[Andy Green]

For a long time, I have noticed this - back in the 70s I remember (as a teenage TV 'anorak') that there appeared to be a greenish 'tinge' to some scenes of videotaped drama, which wasn't present with film, or even well lit 'live' TV - to this day, I don't know if it was the camera or the VTR process - I suspect the camera, though.
Also, older tube cameras suffered from 'lag' or 'smear' when panning across bright objects, - sometimes, this 'smear' had a different effect on some colour tubes, resulting in coloured 'smearing'. Also, one could see the effect if any cameras had not been converged correctly, with coloured 'fringing'. This was pretty common to see here in Ireland in the early 80s - maybe the budget wasn't there to align the cameras before every show!
If you look at some American colour videotaped material from early60's, you can see the blooming effect when a black halo surrounds a bright object (that we used to see on black and white cameras) - I think they were using image orthicons but in a colour camera - maybe someone with more knowledge of camera types can elaborate further.

[plumbweiss]

Another massive difference is the switch from tube cameras to CCD cameras in the early 90's. You can tell a tube camera because any pinpoint lightsource (eg spotlight on Top of the Pops or a candle flame) has a persistence when panning the camera, and in some cases can overload the image to give a green tinge. CCD pro-cameras do not suffer this at all.

Oops just noticed the previous post has mentioned this as well.

If you look at a modern digital broadcast TV camera, there are numerous settings to alter its imaging, you can dial in presets to emulate particular brands and types of cine film, from Kodak Ektachrome to faded Fujicolor! Full frame storage, motion blurring, variable shutter speeds etc. All, in my mind, detract from the viewing experience. Some modern TV adverts seem to suggest the director has been 'playing' with his new toy; a particular advert (cant remember what for) looks like it's shot on over-exposed 16mm Kodachrome...I bet it's digital though!

[Michael Maurice]

2" Quad gave way to 1" omega wrap way before the 1980's possibly the 1960's. The BBC kept Quad machines going to replay old tapes.

The Two Ronnies and similar programmes were recorded onto video tape. The Two Ronnies was usually made in Studio 8, Television Centre in West London. I was a studio engineer and remembered making them.

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by Michael Maurice

2" Quad gave way to 1" omega wrap way before the 1980's possibly the 1960's. The BBC kept Quad machines going to replay old tapes.

1" C format was invented in the mid 1970s and used extensively by the BBC and many others from the late 1970s. It was derived from the Ampex 5000/7000 series 1" industrial machines which date back to the early 1960s. There was a rival 1" format, B format invented by bosch. This used segmented scan and was never widely used even in its native Germany.

The BBC kept a few Quads for many years in order to replay archive material.

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by Focus Diode

I discovered on old "Fawlty Towers" repeat txd in the 1980s on VHS. The picture quality was considerably better than on later repeats! Can't comment on the DVD set as I've not seen it, but expect it to be upto the usual excellent high standards.

Its being repeated (again!) on TV One here, the quality is excellent both on analogue (VHF) and Freeview satellite.

[arjoll]

A thought on the original comment - I remember reading in one of the sites linked from here (one with history of UK TV studios from memory) about a colour setup/calibration developed by/for the BBC which tended towards a 'safe' pallette.

I'm guessing that maybe this could have some effect on the softer, almost washed out colour that older UK material seems to have.

I also remember US TV always looked oversaturated when I was quite young - I'm not sure if this was the US material being oversaturated or a side effect of the less colourful UK material around at the same time!

One final comment - probably slightly OT. There is a story which may or may not be true about engineers sent from the BBC to observe BCNZ's coverage of the 1974 Commonweath Games in Christchurch. This was the first major live event broadcast in colour in NZ (due to a shortage of colour OB vans a number of events were televised in B&W). The BBC techs just couldn't work out how the pictures out of NZ seemed so vibrant and, well, colourful. After checking equipment, alignment, settings etc they decided that it was just the NZ 'light' making things look better I have no idea how reliable this is thought....any ex-BBC techs around who were working in 1974 may be able to confirm or deny.....