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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 5:25 pm   #21
HamishBoxer
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

The only thing is that the inside of cabinets are not varnished or lacquer so if the inside is treated it may be the best place to start?
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 5:37 pm   #22
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

The Cossor pictured in post No.11 has been beautifully camouflaged but is a worry from the structural point of view; the amount of internal damage 'per flight hole' is such that a wood hardener product might be a good idea.....But which to apply first- the toxin or the hardener..?
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 1:51 pm   #23
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

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Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
The Cossor pictured in post No.11 has been beautifully camouflaged but is a worry from the structural point of view; the amount of internal damage 'per flight hole' is such that a wood hardener product might be a good idea.....But which to apply first- the toxin or the hardener..?
No worries, it is a very strong cabinet that rests on a separate base. With the base and the internal CRT front support I did indeed apply woodworm killer first and then I injected self mixing epoxy resin into the flight holes to add strength. I've not rulled out having a new base made at some point, but it has held together ok so far.

Cheers
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 2:24 pm   #24
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

I won't bang on about this as I am probably in a minority, but I hesitate to saturate a radio cabinet with a neurotoxin, albeit declared 'safe'. I would suggest, for example googling for permethrin and cats ... I believe there is a risk when cats come into contact with recently flea spot treated dogs, for example. Keep puss away from the can.
https://icatcare.org/permethrin/owner-info
'While permethrin has a wide safety margin for most mammals, meaning it is generally very safe to use, cats are highly sensitive to permethrin and are much more likely to develop signs of toxicity than dogs. Permethrin is fat-soluble and can be absorbed into the body across the skin, or after being swallowed. It is metabolised (broken down by) the liver and it is thought that cats have different liver metabolic pathways to other species (in particular a relative deficiency of the enzyme hepatic glucuronosyltransferase) leading to a poor ability to break down permethrin. This makes cats much more susceptible to being poisoned.
Cats are most commonly poisoned when they are exposed to the high concentration of permethrin typically found in some spot-on products designed to control fleas and ticks on dogs '.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 11:02 pm   #25
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

I've censored my own post
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 11:13 am   #26
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Unfortunately the most effective insecticide is a nerve agent. The problem is these rely on contact as and we have no idea where the larvae will emerge, painting insecticide onto a wooden surface (by which I mean with varnish/lacquer having been removed!) is futile as the vehicle (water or VOC) will not carry sufficiently deeply into the cells to serve any real purpose - paraffin likewise!

The reason paraffin 'works' is because the chance of reinfestation there is as remote as winning the lottery! However, pure Turpentine works because, like creosote, it contains natural and powerful insecticides. Turps/White-spirit is NOT Turpentine! Turpentine is very expensive.

As with Lawrence (Hi!) I too have spent most if my life in 'timber' (woodland, sawmilling, furniture making, pressure impregnation - far superior to vac-vac!!). Unfortunately in today's insane world, if an insecticide and its very necessary volatile organic solvent (to prevent distorting machined timber by using water) vehicle works, then it is banned... unless you get a license!

The good news is that furniture beetles rarely lay their eggs in new furniture in modern hermetically sealed homes or dry non-double glazed cottages: they however thrive in damp gardens sheds where most 'antiques' end up!... and thereby enter the home to then happily attack 50 year old oak furniture and is Scotch glued birch plywood oak veneered panels!

The other good news is that attacks are random and unpredictable. Short of only using pre-treated timber, the only solution is to flood fresh holes as they appear in the spring in the hope that sufficient insecticide is absorbed to kill others nearby. Keep treating until the end of the summer and fresh dust stops.

By all means soak all joints, cracks and crevices where eggs could be laid, if it makes you happy - it'll certainly make Rentokil happy - but unless you steep the cabinet in a bath of VOC based insecticide (NOT water-based!) for several weeks to allow absorbtion by capilliary and osmotic action, you won't achieve much especially in treating long vacated flight holes!!

Remember - Nature always wins!
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 2:20 pm   #27
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

A lot of interesting but off-putting answers to my question.

I think I'm going to keep the plastic cased Philips but the rest will become spares and firewood.

I might make a copy of the 1936 Marconiphone cabinet and remount the chassis but the rest are pretty common postwar Bush and Pye radios.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 2:05 pm   #28
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If as I suspect your cabinet is Scotch glued birch-ply then the inside will be like a sponge - full of holes and sawdust. You can't sensibly salvage this; it is far 'easier' to make a new cabinet from modern resin-glue plywood.... unfortunately the best furniture grade multi-ply remains ... birch! Just pre-treat it. The large core gossamer thin veneered plywoods from DIY stores are best avoided!

Enjoy!
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 7:53 am   #29
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

This thread reminds me of the retirement of a senior engineer back in the Old GEC Trafford Park days. The director asked the retiree at his presentation if he would miss the company after his 50 years service. He responded by saying no (abruptly if I recall correctly).
He would in fact miss all of the knowledge base that was available. In this he was referring to problems with central heating or how to grow tomatoes and so forth. The emphasis being that there would always be someone who knew what the solution was.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 11:57 am   #30
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

I have a phobia about woodworm and normally wouldn't buy anything with a hole in it, however at the Golborne Swapmeet a few years ago I saw a nice GEC BC-4652, now this has a Bakelite cabinet and there should be no problems, however I did see some small piles of frass behind the dial glass which could only have come from the loudspeaker mounting board, thinking it would be very easy to make a new one I bought the set, however on dismantling it ( outside in the garden just in case some beetles came flying out, I did say I had a phobia ) I found the board a bit more difficult to make than I thought, the speaker sat in a recess and there were brass inserts in the board to retain it, as the board was not too big I adopted a alternative way to eliminate any pests, I put the board in a roasting bag and then into the kitchen oven and baked it at approx' 100C for a couple of hours, there were no visible signs of any change to the board, I had wondered about distortion and glue melting but all went OK, I would imagine if anyone had an oven big enough for a cabinet it might be a bit risky with chances of lifting veneers etc.

John
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 8:10 am   #31
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

One thing you need to remember about wood is that it is a brilliant insulator which is why it is used in chef's pots and pans! So while deep freezing timber at -180oC it takes a considerable amount to freeze the core - witness verdant Siberian tunras in springtime.

Likewise kiln drying - (baking) a controlled process to desicate green timber to accelerate its natural seasoning process to draw out moisture in their inner cells by osmosis through high heat and humidity. You can roast a meat joint for 2-hours; charred on outside but raw and ****** in inside. A cake moist inside.

Kiln-drying certainly kills live grubs near the surface, but the sugars and proteins remain to feed later infestations. All woods adjust to ambient humidity over time, even kiln-dried!.. so you're back to square one!

The only 'guaranteed' cure is pressure impregnation using solvent carried toxic chemicals or water-borne toxic salts which remain fixed (ie. don't leach)... but boron is very difficult to 'fix'. All other remedies are quite literally only 'skin-deep'.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 7:04 pm   #32
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

I'm no expert in treating woodworm, in fact the 'loudspeaker mounting board' I baked is the only time I have done anything to try and kill them, but the technique is one that is taken from 'The Building Conservation Directory 2008' and is shown on the website,

http://www.buildingconservation.com/...m/woodworm.htm

and this quote is taken from it,

“Fortunately, other more effective techniques for controlling active infection by Anobium punctatum have been developed, generally by those involved with the conservation of museum artefacts. These treatments are generally based on environmental manipulation so as to create an environment that results in the early death of any Anobium punctatum larvae within the material. The most generally useful technique involves raising the temperature of the infected material to above 50C. This may be easily achieved with furnishings or relatively small objects,”

This is what I was hoping to do as the wood section was only about 10mm thick but only time will tell if I was successful, but they could have all been dead already.

Regards cooking meat, after a couple of hours in the oven we measure a temperature of at least 70C in a good sized chicken, whether the board got to that temperature or not I don't know.

John
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 1:50 pm   #33
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Your cooked, chicken presumably at 180oC, high-lights a major problem. The innards are cooked by heat conduction through the blood (******* above was an adjective, b....y) in the adjacent cells/muscular tissue... but dry timber only has air in its cells - and air is a brilliant insulator of heat!

Depending on duty, kiln drying is usually carried out at 150-180o Fahrenheit (I still can't work in this new fangled centigrade stuff) but at 100-130oF for a better grade of finished timber. In both cases, an equilibrium point is reached between ambient and internal conditions (hence a moist, baked cake). Depending on specie of timber, if you cleave a piece of seasoned 2"x2", it'll likely be dry at its core, but cleave a piece of 4"x4" and it'll still be quite damp at its core, although its surface will soon air-dry! The irony is that preservative/-cidal chemcials are better absorbed through moist cell walls than dry! Have fun!
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 2:10 pm   #34
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

Quote:
Originally Posted by brenellic2000 View Post
The reason paraffin 'works' is because the chance of reinfestation there is as remote as winning the lottery! However, pure Turpentine works because, like creosote, it contains natural and powerful insecticides. Turps/White-spirit is NOT Turpentine! Turpentine is very expensive.
Is that the natural "gum turpentine" of the sort used by artists to thin paint that has insecticide properties?

In Australia creosote's been banned, but we can still get naphthalene mothballs, which can be put in a plastic bag with the dodgy wood and left somewhere warm for an extended period, or possibly added to kerosene in small amounts to give it a creosote quality.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 2:21 pm   #35
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Default Re: Woodworm damaged cabinets

Turpentine is made from pine tree resin. I've never heard of 'gum turpentine' but that may not be significant - it may be a specialised term or an Australianism. 'Turpentine substitute' is a petroleum product similar to white spirit.

Creosote has been banned in the EU too. I'm not sure about mothballs.

[Later] Just checked and naphthalene mothballs were banned in the EU in 2008.

[Even later] Despite this, I've just successfully bought some from a UK supplier, so it looks as if the rules aren't being enforced.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 3:51 pm   #36
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Gum turpentine is made from pine resin, Naval Stores...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_stores_industry

Lawrence.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 4:22 pm   #37
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Yes, 'artists' turpentine as got from distilled rosin... '100% natural' ... as is creosote from distilled coal-tar, or wood-tar... yet wood-tar creosote is less effective than coal-tar which is derived from... wood. Hmmm!

Turpentine doesn't kill all known bugs... Australia has different 'bugs' to us.

Creosote (not trademarked oil-based 'Creocote') remains available on licence in the UK to utilities because nothing - but nothing - beats it! All toxins work because they are... toxic. Gosh! The problem is two-fold; each distillation differs (which confuses the legislators) and the mindless indiscriminate misuse by idiots!

The GPO (BT) / National Grid are already starting to replace 'new improved preservative treated' but now rotting telegraph poles! Its a funny old world!
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Old 31st Aug 2017, 1:33 am   #38
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I was recently looking for info on Tanalising solution that you can get for treating the faces of Tanalised timber that have been exposed by sawing or notching, and found a farmers' forum complaining about the short life of fence posts that now exists since the original Tanalising solution was changed to omit a poisonous ingredient that made it work. Apparently the manufacturers had assured everyone that the new formula was just as effective, but the fence post suppliers found it wasn't, and successfully sued the makers. Unfortunately that doesn't help anyone that wants durable wooden posts as the original stuff remains unavailable, so posts that used to last at least 25 years now barely last five.

Now that DDT has been banned, traditional Mothballs are one of the few things that the domestic user has available to reliably kill fleas, which are highly resistant to insecticides. I had an infestation in the (very large) greenhouse of the first house I bought, and after trying various fumigation products (including burning Sulphur) that were available in the 1970's to no effect, tried the mothballs that were recommended in a textbook for professionals on domestic sanitation (the other solution was Cyanide gas!). They worked a treat, so ought to do for woodworm larvae as well.

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Old 31st Aug 2017, 2:25 am   #39
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I've noticed that bare wood is now being used for public works in my area, and of course it starts to crack up after a single winter. It's usually got nasty copper-chrome-arsenic stuff in it to discourage the bugs, but someone's apparently forgotten that wood needs a coating of something like paint or oil to protect it against sun and water.

I've heard that sump oil was once used as a cheap alternative to creosote. It probably has some creosote-like stuff in it from the exhaust soot.

Most mothballs on sale now are camphor, which don't kill moths but are supposed to repel them, though I've not seen any evidence of that.
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Old 31st Aug 2017, 10:29 am   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
I was recently looking for info on Tanalising solution that you can get for treating the faces of Tanalised timber that have been exposed by sawing or notching, and found a farmers' forum complaining about the short life of fence posts that now exists since the original Tanalising solution was changed to omit a poisonous ingredient that made it work. Apparently the manufacturers had assured everyone that the new formula was just as effective, but the fence post suppliers found it wasn't, and successfully sued the makers. Unfortunately that doesn't help anyone that wants durable wooden posts as the original stuff remains unavailable, so posts that used to last at least 25 years now barely last five.
In the trade we called it "end treatment" to treat cut surfaces.

You have to be careful when comparing the effectiveness of new treatment fluids against old treatment fluids, particularly with ground contact timbers such as fence post etc because in a lot of cases the physical aspects of the timber has changed somewhat prior to treatment with the actual fluid, eg: different species, methods of debarking/preparation etc etc.

You have to remember that with fluid treatment the heartwood of the timber is not penetrated enough (without assistance) for sufficient chemical retention, that's just the law of nature, in other words the way trees grow.

The part of the timber that will take the fluid is the sapwood, no sapwood = virtually no fluid uptake except a bit up the end grain, what does that mean for fence posts? Well it depends how the posts are arrived at as well as the species, for instance round or half round posts...post material arrived at the sawmill direct from the forest in the form of round material complete with bark, the bark needed to be removed for the treatment process, this was done by stuffing them through a peeler...usually a Cundy, the blades in that machine were set just to take the bark off leaving virtually all the sapwood intact (remember sapwood's the name of the game for chemical retention)

So far so good, round peeled posts full of sapwood stuffed into the Tanalising plant...ideal...Treated round posts come out and get stuffed into the ground, lot's of all round protection.

But then things start to get cheap, if the round post is split we can get two half round posts from each blank, two fence posts from one..yippee..well not quite...suddenly the all round sapwood band has been compromised, there's a flat exposed surface of heartwood, as that stands that surface will not take up any viable amount of fluid.

It gets worse, round smooth uniform posts become all the rage, in many cases due to the nature of round timber most of the sapwood is stripped off when it's stuffed through a rounder....no good...but they stack and look better to most folks!

But it gets worse still, the old method of splitting a roundwood post into two was to stuff it through a band or plate saw, usually a quarter inch kerf at most, if you butt the two halves together it would still be virtually round, not so these days...why... because after its been through a rounder it's easy to take something out of the middle such as a pallet board (pallet boards sell) or a blank for re-sawing into fence panel or trellis battens etc, butt the two halves together...big difference, no longer virtually round...weaker post, so...weaker post with no treated sapwood...no wonder they don't last like the old stuff.

It's a similar story for dimensioned timber posts, the best knot free timber (think 's) from a well managed forest plantation comes from the outer growth of the tree (knot free growth) this also contains the sapwood, next in value is the rest of the tree (going from outer to inner) eventually you get near to the center where the subsequent cuts will "box" the heartwood, called "boxed heart" this is the crappiest part of the trees timber (very poor 's), tell you what we'll stuff that out as fence posts...virtually no fluid uptake (more profit) and more shakes/splits than you can a stick at when it starts to dry out.

So...the majority of dimensioned fence post will be boxed heart, here's why, most fencing material for dimensioned posts comes direct from the forest in the form of "fencing bars" a fencing bar is usually 5" to 7" top diameter under bark (TDUB) and 6 or 8 ft in length, in order to make any reasonable money from the log the outer cuts are, where possible cut to pallet board thickness (approx. 18mm) for re-sawing into pallet wood blanks (approx. 100x18mm) or 18mm blanks for re-sawing to fence panel/trellis batten dimensions, that usually accounts for virtually all of the sapwood so very little sapwood is left on the remaining stock which the fence post is cut from, boxed heart will be inevitable from such roundwood.

But...things are looking up a bit, builders merchants etc are now starting to stock dimensioned fence posts that have been incised prior to fluid treatment so at least there's something in the heartwood....Incision was done with the old creosote treated utility poles because brilliant though creosote is, heartwood penetration is very little with any fluid unless assisted.

Species, going back some years there was a lot of pine coming out of the forests, Scots, Corsican, Lodgepole etc, not so now, nearly all Sitka Spruce, excellent strength to weight ratio and a favourite for the pulp mills, but so far as treatment fluid retention goes it doesn't match that of the pines, so there's another factor to consider when taking durability into account.

All in all, generally less sapwood for fluid uptake (crap) and a lot of boxed heart with virtually no fluid uptake for dimensioned posts (double crap)

Unfortunately for the old radio cabinets made of plywood the veneers (except possibly the face veneer) were usually cut from sapwood which is yum yum for the beasties...

Lawrence.

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