Kiev 4 Junior Radio - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Neil Purling · 1st Jul 2020, 2:26 pm

I just received this radio from the Ukraine. I am not exactly sure of the date. Around 1992 if the dates from the electrolytic capacitors are to be believed.
It uses six 1.5V batteries, which are not AAs. Are they a size unique to the former Soviet republics?

tri-comp · 1st Jul 2020, 4:57 pm

Here's a little info on the Kiev-4 Kit.

The kit was produced from the start 80'ies and used 6 batteries type A332 (same as USSR types R10S, LR10, #4, 927, BF, U8)

Here's the schematic diagram and pictures of the kit and the battery-type.

Rgds,

/Torben

Herald1360 · 1st Jul 2020, 9:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Purling

I just received this radio from the Ukraine. I am not exactly sure of the date. Around 1992 if the dates from the electrolytic capacitors are to be believed.
It uses six 1.5V batteries, which are not AAs. Are they a size unique to the former Soviet republics?

They're not unique, though not very common nowadays. Two were used in the No.8 3V battery and the IEC designation is R10. Old EverReady type was U8.

Neil Purling · 2nd Jul 2020, 9:27 am

Where can I find these batteries, assuming they are still made. It looks like they look like a AA cell, but one that's 3/4 of the length. Maybe better to solder in a PP3 battery snap?

Part of the vendor's description:
The new Kiev-4 radio receiver from the set (children's radio designer) “Start 7229” is sold complete with a packing box and an electrical (mounting) circuit. Since 1980, Kiev was produced by the factory of electronic computers and control machines (PO "Electronmash") for beginner hams and children. The receiver is assembled at the factory! Case color is Yellow. Sold for collection or repair.
Does not work. When the battery is connected, only clicks (rustling) in the speaker. No noise !!!. There were no restorations or interventions in radio communications, the details are original. To satisfy customers. The receiver was assembled in the 90s, when the quality of radio components in the USSR was of poor quality. After 30 years, some of them worsened their parameters.
I applaud the seller's honesty.

Has anyone experience in fixing these? There are some of those 'orange chip' silicon transistors I remember from my Selga 404. I
am just wondering if I would have to replace all the resistors & capacitors.
tri-comp: Did you ever test the components provided in that kit?

Does anyone know enough Russian to decipher the printing on the box? I am just wondering if the radio was only oriented towards children.

Nickthedentist · 2nd Jul 2020, 10:06 am

Are these “N” cells?

Herald1360 · 2nd Jul 2020, 8:28 pm

Previous comments suggest not, but if they really are AA diameter not rather bigger, then N cells would fit the bill. They're readily available but way overpriced for what they offer in the way of capacity!

tri-comp · 2nd Jul 2020, 9:45 pm

Hi Neil,

I have never seen this kit, but I do visit Kiev, UA from time to time as my wifes family lives there.
The occational visit to a nearby technical market can be very rewarding especially when in the market for vintage Sovjet electronics like valves, capacitors and Teflon-insulated signal-cables to mention a few.
I've picked-up some knowledge of the Ukrainian language which is quite similar to Russian. Actually the biggest problem is translating the Cyrillic letters into Latin in realtime. Once you master it a lot of words and phrases starts to make sense if you have some insight into western European languages like Scandinavian, English, German and French.
I actually have a copy of the assembly instructions for your kit which of course is written in Russian/Cyrillic. You should have a ball with this

I've had to Zip-it as it's in Djvu-format which isn't allowed for upload here.

Best regards,

/Torben

EDIT:
I forgot to include the translation of the text with purple/blue background.
The text: ИГРУШНА ДЛЯ ДЕТЕЙ 14 ЛЕТ И СТАРШЕ translates into: TOY FOR CHILDREN 14 YEARS AND OLDER

Paul_A_R · 2nd Jul 2020, 10:05 pm

The small battery company sells a U8. It looks like a home brew label so they possibly split a Camelion LR10. That is what I do for a small torch that use two U8 batteries.

Paul_A_R · 2nd Jul 2020, 10:13 pm

Oops out of stock at the small battery company. You can still get the 2R10s from internet suppliers but there re a fair number of out of stock warnings. It is still listed on the Camelion website so I assume it is not being withdrawn.

Neil Purling · 5th Oct 2020, 8:59 am

How bad were the components of their time? I am just wondering if I am likely to be forced to replace every resistor & capacitor.

Herald1360 · 5th Oct 2020, 10:20 am

That seems unlikely.... just check a few resistors where their position in circuit means they're not shunted by other components and see how they are. There's not too many electrolytics to replace if they prove to be dodgy.

The output stage is interesting- it looks like a quasi complementary arrangement with the PNP Darlington missing a transistor!

I presume the reason for not being a superhet yet having no less than 8 transistors was to avoid any alignment issues. I hope it's performance is better than the ghastly Roamer 7 of similar ilk!

Neil Purling · 5th Oct 2020, 8:55 pm

The resistors are wispy-looking things. Is the medium always carbon these days?
Just wondering what the Soviets used that has been unstable? Or perhaps there was zero quality-control?

Neil Purling · 5th Oct 2020, 9:44 pm

I soldered a PP3 battery connector across the tags on the original battery holder.

The condition is exactly as the seller said: Pop on switching on and audio 'hiss'. There's a slight whistle at one point in the rotation of the tuning wheel. No presence of stations at any point.

Herald1360 · 5th Oct 2020, 9:54 pm

Carbon composition (carbon granules in a binder) packed in a tube was the cheapest way to make useful resistors but their long term stability was poor. Carbon film deposited on a ceramic rod was rather better but more expensive. Metal oxide film was better again and metal film even more so. Developments in manufacturing have reduced the cost of metal film to the point where for anything other than mass produced undemanding and a few niche applications it's the easiest choice. Wirewound resistors still hold their own for power LF applications and have always been relatively stable.

Soviet military and precision components were pretty good but consumer stuff perhaps less so.

Neil Purling · 5th Jan 2021, 8:05 pm

I checked several electrolytics, bridging them in the manner shango uses.
While looking closely at the underside of the PCB I noted adjacent tracks had been bridged during assembly. Around the area of V2.
This radio would never have worked from new!
I cleared the mistake with a dab of the soldering iron and the set now works on all of the original components.

The only change I made was adding the snap connector for the PP3 battery. I don't know if the OEM batteries are still available in the Ukraine.
I don't fancy starting to change parts that much or else I would have got an unbuilt kit and used no Soviet resistors or capacitors.
For that sort of cost I could have a good Selga or Sokol.

Neil Purling · 13th Jan 2021, 8:37 am

I do not know what the OE battery was like in terms of diameter & current rating to know whether one single PP3 9v is equivalent. Sound starts to fade after a while & of course there is not frequency drift as there is no local oscillator. I will look first at the current draw.

Out of curiosity what was the current capacity of a U8 battery? The Small Battery Company do not list current capacity (mAh). Would period Ever-ready catalogues have done the same?
Given the SBC price for a single U8 adding an extra snap for another PP3 in parallel makes more sense. Before I dive into the thing looking for bad components that may not exist.

Alvin · 13th Jan 2021, 12:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Purling

Does anyone know enough Russian to decipher the printing on the box? I am just wondering if the radio was only oriented towards children.

No need to know Russian with the sweet little graphic on the box - good to see it's not just a boys toy!

Herald1360 · 13th Jan 2021, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Purling

I do not know what the OE battery was like in terms of diameter & current rating to know whether one single PP3 9v is equivalent. Sound starts to fade after a while & of course there is not frequency drift as there is no local oscillator. I will look first at the current draw.

Out of curiosity what was the current capacity of a U8 battery? The Small Battery Company do not list current capacity (mAh). Would period Ever-ready catalogues have done the same?
Given the SBC price for a single U8 adding an extra snap for another PP3 in parallel makes more sense. Before I dive into the thing looking for bad components that may not exist.

U8 capacity was probably around 1500mAH. Alkaline versions maybe up to 5000mAH.

Is there room for a suitable 4-AA or 4-AAA battery pack in the original location?

Neil Purling · 13th Jan 2021, 8:04 pm

So. That's three PP3's in parallel!
I know the Small battery Co offers the U8, but I can have three Zinc Chloride PP3 from the local supermarket for half the price.

Anyone know when the infamous Flying Bomb brand disappeared?
A childs radio would have been fed on that sort of market-stall battery. Simply the cheapest thing available. Somehow I don't expect there was much of a choice if any in the former USSR.

Herald1360 · 14th Jan 2021, 1:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald1360

U8 capacity was probably around 1500mAH. Alkaline versions maybe up to 5000mAH.

Is there room for a suitable 4-AA or 4-AAA battery pack in the original location?

Oops, brain failure- that should be 6-AA or 6-AAA of course

1st Jul 2020, 2:26 pm	#1
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Kiev 4 Junior Radio I just received this radio from the Ukraine. I am not exactly sure of the date. Around 1992 if the dates from the electrolytic capacitors are to be believed. It uses six 1.5V batteries, which are not AAs. Are they a size unique to the former Soviet republics? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Neil Purling; 1st Jul 2020 at 2:28 pm. Reason: added image of inside the case

1st Jul 2020, 4:57 pm	#2
tri-comp Heptode Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Aalborg, Denmark Posts: 903	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio Here's a little info on the Kiev-4 Kit. The kit was produced from the start 80'ies and used 6 batteries type A332 (same as USSR types R10S, LR10, #4, 927, BF, U8) Here's the schematic diagram and pictures of the kit and the battery-type. Rgds, /Torben Attached Thumbnails

2nd Jul 2020, 10:06 am	#5
Nickthedentist Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 17,861	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio Are these “N” cells?

2nd Jul 2020, 8:28 pm	#6
Herald1360 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 16,536	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio Previous comments suggest not, but if they really are AA diameter not rather bigger, then N cells would fit the bill. They're readily available but way overpriced for what they offer in the way of capacity! __________________ ....__________ ....\|____\|\|__\|__\_____ .=.\| _---\__\|__\|_---_\|. .........O..Chris....O

2nd Jul 2020, 10:05 pm	#8
Paul_A_R Tetrode Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Penicuik, Midlothian, Scotland, UK. Posts: 57	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio The small battery company sells a U8. It looks like a home brew label so they possibly split a Camelion LR10. That is what I do for a small torch that use two U8 batteries.

2nd Jul 2020, 9:27 am	#4
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio Where can I find these batteries, assuming they are still made. It looks like they look like a AA cell, but one that's 3/4 of the length. Maybe better to solder in a PP3 battery snap? Part of the vendor's description: The new Kiev-4 radio receiver from the set (children's radio designer) “Start 7229” is sold complete with a packing box and an electrical (mounting) circuit. Since 1980, Kiev was produced by the factory of electronic computers and control machines (PO "Electronmash") for beginner hams and children. The receiver is assembled at the factory! Case color is Yellow. Sold for collection or repair. Does not work. When the battery is connected, only clicks (rustling) in the speaker. No noise !!!. There were no restorations or interventions in radio communications, the details are original. To satisfy customers. The receiver was assembled in the 90s, when the quality of radio components in the USSR was of poor quality. After 30 years, some of them worsened their parameters. I applaud the seller's honesty. Has anyone experience in fixing these? There are some of those 'orange chip' silicon transistors I remember from my Selga 404. I am just wondering if I would have to replace all the resistors & capacitors. tri-comp: Did you ever test the components provided in that kit? Does anyone know enough Russian to decipher the printing on the box? I am just wondering if the radio was only oriented towards children.

2nd Jul 2020, 10:13 pm	#9
Paul_A_R Tetrode Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Penicuik, Midlothian, Scotland, UK. Posts: 57	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio Oops out of stock at the small battery company. You can still get the 2R10s from internet suppliers but there re a fair number of out of stock warnings. It is still listed on the Camelion website so I assume it is not being withdrawn.

5th Oct 2020, 8:59 am	#10
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio How bad were the components of their time? I am just wondering if I am likely to be forced to replace every resistor & capacitor.

5th Oct 2020, 10:20 am	#11
Herald1360 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 16,536	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio That seems unlikely.... just check a few resistors where their position in circuit means they're not shunted by other components and see how they are. There's not too many electrolytics to replace if they prove to be dodgy. The output stage is interesting- it looks like a quasi complementary arrangement with the PNP Darlington missing a transistor! I presume the reason for not being a superhet yet having no less than 8 transistors was to avoid any alignment issues. I hope it's performance is better than the ghastly Roamer 7 of similar ilk! __________________ ....__________ ....\|____\|\|__\|__\_____ .=.\| _---\__\|__\|_---_\|. .........O..Chris....O

5th Oct 2020, 8:55 pm	#12
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio The resistors are wispy-looking things. Is the medium always carbon these days? Just wondering what the Soviets used that has been unstable? Or perhaps there was zero quality-control?

5th Oct 2020, 9:44 pm	#13
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio I soldered a PP3 battery connector across the tags on the original battery holder. The condition is exactly as the seller said: Pop on switching on and audio 'hiss'. There's a slight whistle at one point in the rotation of the tuning wheel. No presence of stations at any point. Last edited by Neil Purling; 5th Oct 2020 at 9:45 pm. Reason: removing typo

5th Oct 2020, 9:54 pm	#14
Herald1360 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 16,536	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio Carbon composition (carbon granules in a binder) packed in a tube was the cheapest way to make useful resistors but their long term stability was poor. Carbon film deposited on a ceramic rod was rather better but more expensive. Metal oxide film was better again and metal film even more so. Developments in manufacturing have reduced the cost of metal film to the point where for anything other than mass produced undemanding and a few niche applications it's the easiest choice. Wirewound resistors still hold their own for power LF applications and have always been relatively stable. Soviet military and precision components were pretty good but consumer stuff perhaps less so. __________________ ....__________ ....\|____\|\|__\|__\_____ .=.\| _---\__\|__\|_---_\|. .........O..Chris....O

5th Jan 2021, 8:05 pm	#15
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio I checked several electrolytics, bridging them in the manner shango uses. While looking closely at the underside of the PCB I noted adjacent tracks had been bridged during assembly. Around the area of V2. This radio would never have worked from new! I cleared the mistake with a dab of the soldering iron and the set now works on all of the original components. The only change I made was adding the snap connector for the PP3 battery. I don't know if the OEM batteries are still available in the Ukraine. I don't fancy starting to change parts that much or else I would have got an unbuilt kit and used no Soviet resistors or capacitors. For that sort of cost I could have a good Selga or Sokol.

13th Jan 2021, 8:37 am	#16
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio I do not know what the OE battery was like in terms of diameter & current rating to know whether one single PP3 9v is equivalent. Sound starts to fade after a while & of course there is not frequency drift as there is no local oscillator. I will look first at the current draw. Out of curiosity what was the current capacity of a U8 battery? The Small Battery Company do not list current capacity (mAh). Would period Ever-ready catalogues have done the same? Given the SBC price for a single U8 adding an extra snap for another PP3 in parallel makes more sense. Before I dive into the thing looking for bad components that may not exist.

13th Jan 2021, 8:04 pm	#19
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Kiev 4 Junior Radio So. That's three PP3's in parallel! I know the Small battery Co offers the U8, but I can have three Zinc Chloride PP3 from the local supermarket for half the price. Anyone know when the infamous Flying Bomb brand disappeared? A childs radio would have been fed on that sort of market-stall battery. Simply the cheapest thing available. Somehow I don't expect there was much of a choice if any in the former USSR.