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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 23rd May 2020, 9:04 pm   #41
jascha
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Yes indeed I have been talking with jsantoro on a different forum as some months ago he came to my rescue in helping me fix my A807 and his help and knowledge were really helpful. He’s a great guy.
Thanks for your help and indeed it would really be helpful to have these ICs data backed up and made available to the community just in case.
I will send you a PM when I hopefully can get my hands on a separate set of spare programmed ICs as I feel a bit nervous sending my own in the post in case they get lost and end up without a functioning machine for a while. I would think that I will be able to get hold of a spare set after the Summer.
Cheers
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:51 pm   #42
jascha
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Ps: I’m glad that jsantoro has now joined this forum too and between you all there’s so much knowledge shared that will be of great help to so many. I personally am very grateful to you all for sharing your expertise and time to help out. Jim is absolutely right in that these devices are now ageing and it’s a good move that we backup all we can from these discreet components do we ensure that these great treasures carry on bring in service for future years to come.
The rest of the machine uses pretty much standard components in comparison so that’s a relief.
Have a good weekend everyone
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Old 24th May 2020, 5:42 pm   #43
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

After some further thought and a few further exchanges with jascha via PM, I have thrown together the attached crude circuit diagram of an adaptor which will allow an 82S123 PROM to be read with a normal EPROM programmer as though it is a 28-pin EPROM.

Physically, this might take the form of a 16 pin turned-pin IC socket with insulated wires, say 3 inches long, soldered to all 16 pins on the underside of the socket. These wires would be routed and soldered as shown on the diagram to the TOP contacts on a 28-pin IC socket.

The PROM to be read is inserted in the 16-pin socket, the 28-pin socket is inserted into the ZIF socket on the EPROM programmer.

In the programmer's software choose any manufacturer's version of 27256 EPROM.

If it is possible to set the FROM and TO address range in the prgrammer's software, change it from the default 27256 range of 0000-7FFF and set it to 0000-001F.

Select 'Read Device' in the programmer's menu. The first 32 bytes of the hex display in the hex viewer / editor of the programmer software should now contain the code from the PROM.

In the 'Save' menu of the programmer's software, select a meaningful name for the code and save it in whatever file format you require - I would suggest binary with a .bin filename extension. If you are prompted for a FROM and TO address range to save, choose FROM 0000, TO 001F.

Note that this adaptor is read-only, and sadly will not give the EPROM programmer the miraculous ability to program PROMs.
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Old 24th May 2020, 5:52 pm   #44
jascha
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

That is truly amazing and I will build an adapter and try it out. Thanks so much for this circuit and for your time to help. Indeed a shame that our modern programmers cannot program old PROMs as you say but that’s the trouble with technology... it moves on and it’s up to us to fight back and challenge the modern times so we can keep these vintage machines running for many years to come. They are unbeatable if set up to optimum alignments!
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Old 24th May 2020, 7:02 pm   #45
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Hi Sirius,

I'd love to see the Arduino circuit and sketch you used to read them out. This forum is going to be bad for my wallet as I love old tube radios, TVs etc.
Go to go a Studer A800 is eating driving me crazy. It already ate my lunch.

Jim
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Old 24th May 2020, 8:11 pm   #46
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

I don't know if this will help but I've found a number of what I assume are unprogrammed PROMs. Not the 123s but possibly an adaptor could be made.

The PROMS which may be useable are

N82S181N 24 pin 1024 x 8
TBP28S42N 20 pin 512 x 8
TBP28L22MJ 20 pin 256 x 8

plus N82S137N 18 pin 1024 x 4

If these are of use let me know as I have no use for them and no means of checking or programming them.

Keith
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Old 24th May 2020, 8:49 pm   #47
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

jsantoro, here is the Arduino PROM reader sketch attached. The forum doesn't know what a .ino file is so I have had to wrap it up in a .zip file. I've changed one line to tell it to read only 32 bytes as per 82S123, it can read devices of up to 512 Bytes.

Output is 16-column ASCII HEX sent to the serial monitor in the Arduino IDE at the default baudrate of 9600bd. It starts as you as you open the serial monitor. Just press reset on the Arduino to run it again.

If you want to save the code displayed on the serial monitor screen, just drag around and and 'copy' the hex code only, paste it into a simple text editor like notepad and save it as whateveryoulike.hex.

There's no circuit as such, it's just the Arduino and the PROM. Connections from the Arduino to an 82S123 would be...

Code:
82S123       Arduino
pin          pin   

8            GND
16           5V

1            5
2            6
3            7
4            8
5            9
6            10
7            11
9            12

10           A0
11           A1
12           A2
13           A3
14           A4

15           13
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Old 25th May 2020, 5:45 pm   #48
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Thanks a bunch, I'll try it this week when I get some time. (ha)
Digging around I did find my old Curtis Nammer used to burn the NAM proms in old analog cell phones. They happen to be 32x8 bi-polar proms. Don't have the book but it does default to Signetics, setting to anything else would be a guess. And if I remember each mfg had their own logarithm
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Old 25th May 2020, 10:34 pm   #49
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Yes, with Bipolar PROMs you have an odd situation where many manufacturers made PROMs which had identical pin-outs and were indistinguishable / compatible in read mode, but each manufacturer gave theirs a completely different part number and usually had a unique electrical programming algorithm which worked only for their PROMs. Some PROM manufacturers such as 'Tesla' in eastern Europe have never been widely supported by programmers, so they are among the cheapest ones to be found - because hardly anyone can programme them.

When it came to EPROMs there was a little more standardisation with all the common types having the same base number (2732, 2764 27128, etc) and there was always a slow 'generic' algorithm through which any manufacturer's EPROM could always be programmed. But then each manufacturer also had their own in-house 'fast' programming algorithm for their parts and no two of these fast algorithms were necessarily the same either. Bit of a minefield.
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Old 25th May 2020, 10:52 pm   #50
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

And a lot of manufacturers of bipolar PROMs, PALs, etc (at least for later devices) would NOT release the programming algorithm (other than under NDA) so you couldn't build your own programmer.

And Texas Instruments had their own versions of some of the EPROMs. What everybody else called a 2716 was a 2516 from TI. Their 2716 needed 3 supply voltages. They also had things like the 2564, close to a 2764 but with different enables (not just a pin swap). A lot of programmers can't handle the TI parts which can be a pain.
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Old 26th May 2020, 8:56 am   #51
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Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Looking back at the schematics in post 9,...

these proms seem to simply be look-up tables as an alternative to some combinational logic. There are no flip-flops in them so they rely on an off-chip counter to sequence things. You could probably replace them with any of:

A small board wit several logic chips
A programmed PAL
A small CPU

It should also be possible to work out what the combinational logic must be, either from considering the operation, or from monitoring waveforms on a working unit.
The programmes for the original parts might not be disseminated, but it's a poor secret which can be deduced.

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