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Old 5th Apr 2017, 9:25 am   #1
G4YVM David
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Default Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Using my clacketty T1154 yesterday got me thinking about side tone. Did the original war time ops use any form of side tone or not? I wasn't using side tone and soon got used to it, but there's no denying a tone makes life easier.

I imagine spark tx users had no sidetone, so when did it start being used?

David
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 10:18 am   #2
G3VKM_Roger
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Hi David,

When I went to marine radio school in the mid-60s sidetone was frowned-on and we were made to use key-clicks to read our sending, easy enough with the clunky Marconi 365 keys.

A lot American WW2 equipment had sidetone (but not all Navy radios) whereas British equivalents did not, so sidetone may have been country/service-specific thing. Spark senders made a lot of audible noise which would have served as S/T.

73

Roger/G3VKM
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 10:34 am   #3
G4YVM David
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Cheers Roger
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 10:35 am   #4
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

I certainly recall seeing an old definitely pre-WWII ARRL handbook with a circuit for a sidetone-oscillator that worked by being loosely coupled to the antenna and rectified RF providing the anode-voltage for the oscillator.
From memory it used an Octal-based double-triode with one half strapped as a diode and the other half a classic transformer-coupled triode audio osc.
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 2:49 pm   #5
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Well, it was certainly in use by the middle of WWII - the British Army WS19 has it for instance. I am pretty sure the WS12 - slightly earlier - had it too. Not sure about the set the army started the war with - the WS11 - I don't have any books where I am right now to check the facts.

It wouldn't surprise me if sidetone didn't start well before WWII - but both equipments and manuals on pre-war sets are thin on the ground.

Richard
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 4:00 pm   #6
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Certainly by 1921, scroll down to text page 21 in the manual in the link below:

http://www.virhistory.com/navy/xmtrs..._TF_and_TG.pdf

Lawrence.
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 4:06 pm   #7
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

If the spark gap was in the radio room, I don't think the operator needed side tone!
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 7:07 pm   #8
GW3OQK Andrew
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

I only know of the 55/54 which had sidetone of course. I joined at least 3 ships in the 1960s where the sidetone output of the Marconi main TX was not connected to the RX. I immediately made the connection with a volume pot in line. Previous R/O's seemed to accept it.

To this day I like to hear sidetone AND the clicking of the key. https://youtu.be/tq0efkO26HA If you did listen to that I know my spaces between words are short.

73, Andrew
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 7:52 pm   #9
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

The story goes that the early line telegraph operators listened to the clicks from the relay electromagnets as a form of sidetone when sending. The clicks were fairly quiet, so to overcome the background noise in the telegraph office, a few operators attached a tin lid to the armature of the relay to amplify the click. Those who did this were regarded as poor operators by their colleagues, and became known as LIDs. The term "LID" as a CW abbreviation meaning "a poor operator" was in the RAE Examination Manual as recently as 1995, although despite being fairly active on CW myself for many years, I've never heard the term used on-air. I have, however, heard plenty of LIDs...
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Old 6th Apr 2017, 10:05 am   #10
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Interesting Phil, I'd never heard of the origin of the term LID but did hear some people once having a steady CW contact whilst an idiot was sending LID at high speed over the top of them.

I doubt if I could send Morse very well without sidetone and also I find it very difficult to listen to the clicks of my own key and understand it. It's a bit like trying to understand Morse when somebody is tapping on a table with their knuckles. You have to listen to the gaps between knocks but that's just not what someone would be intending.

Jim

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Old 6th Apr 2017, 10:43 pm   #11
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Jim, I have tried sending Morse without sidetone, when using an Aldis lamp for example, and whilst it's possible as you say, it is a lot easier with sidetone, so much so that I fitted my pair of LSDSR signalling lamps with buzzers!
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 12:07 am   #12
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Mizuho (also badged 'JIM'), makers of small 'handbag' and 'handheld' SSB/CW rigs, didn't supply a sidetone on the MX... range of HF handhelds. But it was available as on option, which consisted of an extra box fully half the size of the radio itself.

Image #1: My 'Jim' branded Mizuho MX-14S 20m QRP rig and the 'matching' Mizuho CW-2S accessory sidetone unit alongside.

Image #2: CW-2S in more detail. The three identical silver capacitors make me think "Wien bridge oscillator". The actual sounder is a Piezo device, not shown in the image. The sound from it fires out through the small grille next to the 'Gain' knob. The rest of the components may be a timing circuit to make the radio hang in transmit for a little while after the key is released.

I'm pleased the OP made me think of digging this item out because I didn't realise it still had a battery in it - dated 2001 and still looking brand new.

Incredible that it has not leaked.
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 12:21 am   #13
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

That CW-2S is interesting. I just spent most of the evening designing one of them. I've used a simple twin-t oscillator, FET muting and three transistor PA. That probably works better than mine
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 12:36 am   #14
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

It capitalises on the fact that Piezo sounders are only really good at producing one particular frequency, and for this application a single spot audio frequency out is all that's required. The tricky part, I suppose, is getting the fixed frequency audio oscillator to hit the exact sweet spot required in order to drive the piezo transducer at its resonant frequency.

I can't remember how much I paid for it but I bought it new - I probably didn't get much change from £50. The radio - second hand but in as-new condition at the time, was a three figure sum.
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 7:25 am   #15
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
The three identical silver capacitors make me think "Wien bridge oscillator"..
The wien bridge uses only two capacitors in its frequency determining network, and usually needs a small bead thermistor to stabilise its amplitude.

Three capacitors sounds more like a 'phase shift oscillator', the one with a triple-mesh delay section: series-R, shunt-C, series-R, shunt-C, series-R, shunt-C.

The little Mizuho rigs were rather good fun. They also did VCXO ones for the 2 metre band.

David
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 9:09 am   #16
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Definitely phase shift. Built a few of them. You can usually spot a phase shift as they are unstable with different transistor gains so there's usually a trimmer on the board as well.
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 5:53 pm   #17
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
Definitely phase shift.
I stand corrected.

I have a Mizuho SB-2M as well - I believe we (or David and I) have 'spoken' about that before hereabouts. I can't remember if that has sidetone built in or not.

The black button on the lower right corner of the MX-14S pictured a couple of posts ago is the built - in CW key
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 6:01 pm   #18
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

I had the related Totsuko 2100 which had a 10W PA section in it, but seemed to be the same stuff inside. Another of the Dunfermline club, David Birch, GM1EHK had the SB2M running 1 watt and worked stations all over southern England and into the continent from an elevated position in Loch Gelly.

Very effective little radios.

David
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Old 7th Apr 2017, 6:11 pm   #19
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

I think we considered the possibility that the SB-2M I have here might be that very radio because I had bought it from the bring and buy at a borders rally some time in the mid nineties.
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Old 8th Apr 2017, 11:21 am   #20
G4YVM David
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Default Re: Side tone ...when did it start for cw?

That Mizhuo is interesting. I think they ALWAYS made "interesting" radios though. I recall one from the 80s, seemed to cover everything in handbag form...seemed odd then, commonplace now of course.

D
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