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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 10:13 am   #1
PauldeH
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Default Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Apologies if this has been discussed in other threads - couldn't find it anywhere.

Now we know when FM and AM switch off will happen (), does anyone know of a magic box we'll be able to use to keep our old radios in use?

It has occured to me you could use a DAB radio and make it re-transmit via one of those car FM transmitters for using iPods in cars - but wondered if there might be a more elegant solution?

Paul
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 10:29 am   #2
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Hello Paul,

I suspect it'll be typical of its type, but I bought a thing from Aldi for about eight quid; it works but the range is very limited indeed. I'm hoping to give coverage to the whole house and external pick-up wouldn't really be a problem here.

Regards Ant
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 10:57 am   #3
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

The Linex microstransmitter (under £20) will happily broadcast stereo FM all round the house. You can feed it from a DAB tuner, internet radio or whatever you feel like. The sound quality is more than good enough for all practical purposes.

I hope that its effectiveness will not be hampered by whatever eventually is broadcast on the VHF band.

N.
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 12:05 pm   #4
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

There was a chap in the Guardian last week worried about his 18 radios. To my surprise, my letter explaining re-broadcasting as a partial solution to this [in the house anyway] was published yesterday [with anything vaguely technical removed of course]. It's also a good solution now re listening to internet radio away from the computer. There were several threads on micro-broadcasting units at one time-before they actually legalised it, I think. That's a good point about FM Nick but hopefully there will always be a clear spot-as there usually is now. Dave W
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 12:41 pm   #5
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

I can see two things happening.

First, is that some enterprising company will make a set-top box type of thing, to convert DAB signals to AAB (analogue audio broadcast). Hopefully, this will offer outputs in the MW and FM broadcast bands.

Second, there may well be a big clear-out of existing radios by the masses, as they become redundant. So, we must all watch this carefully. I can't see the Mr Man-in-the-street, who has a couple of old radios that he'd always thought he'll get fixed one day, knowing how to find people like us - I can't abide the idea him thinking that now they're no use to anyone he might as well send them to landfill
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 12:41 pm   #6
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of these am/fm rebroadcasters are legal in the UK. Now might be a good idea to start lobbying MPs.

A similar system to the US where an aerial may be attached to a 100mW device would be ideal.
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 1:01 pm   #7
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

This restriction was mentioned previously David but I'm fairly sure that someone posted an update subsequently, pointing out that the regs had been modified in response to little RB's widely appearing as a consumer item [ie £10
toggle things for computers etc] and various new wi-fi applications coming in
and re-broadcasting anyway! If I'm wrong no doubt someone will inform the Guardian! Otherwise your lobby will have started anyway. Not sure MP's could grasp the issues anyway. I was never a fan of CB but I remember when it's introduction was supposedly going to destroy communications. I think that only a tiny minority would ever be using this technique at VHF anyway. In the event, most people would just buy new stuff-even now! Dave
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 1:23 pm   #8
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

It's perfectly permissable to discuss ways of using vintage radios if and when analogue transmissions cease. It's not permissable to discuss the pros and cons of analogue switch off as this is off topic for the forum.

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Old 24th Jun 2009, 11:34 am   #9
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Thread reinstated following deletion of one off topic post and a follow up.

Please heed Paul Sherwin's comments in the previous post about keeping this thread on topic.
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 12:03 pm   #10
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Fantastic! This is important for all of us. Thanks.

Does anyone know what kind of transmission are planned for the existing AM and FM bands?

Will it overwhelm any attempt to broadcast a local transmission using, say, an SSTran or Linex? If so, would a hard-wired connection (as we do with 405-line TVs) be required?

Nick.

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Old 24th Jun 2009, 12:45 pm   #11
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Thanks Mods, for reinstating this thread - I'd tried to post a plea yesterday (after seeing the post you've now deleted) for this not to happen but in the intervening few minutes, you'd already removed the thread! Unlike previous ranting threads re analogue switch-off, this thread does have the potential to throw up some useful tips.

Will there be a 'last-time-buy' glut of old analogue radios, otherwise heading for the dumps? Should we try to raise our profile so that this won't happen?

Can we re-transmit legally at very low power? (I confess I do myself, to receive Classic FM on my Vidor portables round the house, etc). I am taking the view that if I keep the power really low, then nobody outside the house will be affected, I won't be a public nuisance, authorities would hopefully turn a blind eye, and how would they ever find out anyway? The only down side, is that when station announcers give the broadcast frequencies, it's wrong!
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 12:46 pm   #12
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

To the best of my knowledge there are no plans to reuse either AM or FM broadcast bands in the medium term. The proposed 2015 switchoff is only for national services, and local services will continue on FM for the forseeable future. Indeed there are proposals to licence new community stations on FM.

In view of this, there should be no difficulty finding a clear channel for a microtransmitter on either FM or AM.

With regard to legality, some legal microtransmitters are now available. We don't restrict discussions to these on the forum, but we do insist that all microtransmitters discussed have a restricted range and will be unlikely to cause interference to neighbours. As an example, it is acceptable to discuss the Linex microtransmitter (technically illegal), but unacceptable to discuss this 1W professional broadcast transmitter.

Paul
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 1:14 pm   #13
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Thanks for clear explanation re the Forum Paul. I'm glad I didn't dream up the legal micro transmitters. I'm sure it was in the press as well. The amount of people re-broadcasting would be very small anyway I think. People on here would be carefull to use a minimum radiated signal either at VHF or MW, I would imagine. I pointed out to somebody [elsewhere] yesterday that using someone else's Broadband is a crime but a fairly common occurence. The law is about intent as well as detail. You never know, if this ever happens old sets may be more valued. Now Morse isn't "official" any more people are learning it!
Dave W
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:05 pm   #14
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
With regard to legality, some legal microtransmitters are now available. We don't restrict discussions to these on the forum, but we do insist that all microtransmitters discussed have a restricted range and will be unlikely to cause interference to neighbours.
Some reassurance given there Paul, but I would like to know what defines a legal micro-transmitter. Are the legal ones VHF FM only or can MW AM re-transmissions be made?

I ask this because a friend, who is a BT engineer, considers my 100mW AM (medium wave) unit to be an illegal device. I have demonstrated to him that the signal cannot be received outside the boundaries of my property, but have not told him that it can be picked up on a car radio in the driveway.

I would much prefer not to be outside the law, but I have several AM only sets in the house, and my wife likes both Radio 2 and 4 which latter is spoiled for her on Long Wave by sports broadcasting.

Dave
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:12 pm   #15
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

An interesting discussion.

Although the FM retransmission seems to have been covered by the use of Ipod add-on transmitters; which certainly would be adequate for the job; the MW problem still remains, and this is probably of more importance to the Vintage Radio enthusiast than FM.

A quick Google found this design...
http://www.techlib.com/electronics/amxmit.htm

With regard to it's legality over here (it's legal in the USA) I'm not too sure.
However the MW band is used for other things here; such as micro power transmitters in car keyfobs, etc. so there may be a way of legally using such a circuit.

Whether there would be a music copyright problem with it's use may be debatable, but there doesn't seem to be such a problem with the FM Ipod transmitters which are sold in tens of thousands each year so this may not be a problem if the system is used for 'personal use' only.

Mike.
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:17 pm   #16
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

Quote:
I ask this because a friend, who is a BT engineer, considers my 100mW AM (medium wave) unit to be an illegal device.
Whatever your friend's knowledge of radio transmitters and the legislation affecting them might be, the fact he's a BT engineer is irrelevant. It is many years since the GPO, PO or BT had any responsibility for issuing licences or investigating interference.

The question as to whether a low power MW transmitter is legal or not is probably better not asked. In this case ignorance may be bliss. The legality only matters if you cause interference and are found out. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but it may be a mitigating factor. If on the other hand you know that a transmitter is illegal, use it, cause interference and are found out, then clearly you have deliberately broken the law.
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:25 pm   #17
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

As far as low power FM Transmitters are concerned this may be of interest:-

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2006/11/nr_20061123b
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:26 pm   #18
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

I totally agree with your sentiments, Graham.

Just get on with it, in a sensible and considerate way, and nobody will know or care.

Nick.
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:28 pm   #19
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

You can find the legal specifications on the Ofcom website, though I don't have the URL to hand. There are specs for both FM and AM microtransmitters, but I've not come across any AM ones, presumbly because the market is small. Any legal transmitter should be CE marked (though some illegal ones have this too, which they shouldn't).

100mW is a lot for a MW microtransmitter and we wouldn't normally allow it to be discussed here - certainly, there would be a mods discussion about it. I'm not surprised your friend considers it to be illegal as it most certainly is. However, if you use it responsibly with a suitably limiting aerial it may be OK.

Any decision concerning the use of an illegal microtransmitter is the responsibility of the individual involved. However, everyone should bear in mind that if you allow the signal to leak beyond your property you may attract unwelcome official attention, to no benefit to yourself.

Paul
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 2:50 pm   #20
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Default Re: Keeping radios working following analogue switch off.

I will try and knock up that circuit in my post #15 in the next few days and let you know how well it works.

Mike.
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