28th Oct 2013, 11:21 am | #61 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,495
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Belling and Lee sold a special H - with sloping elements that looked like a double V for use in the Midland service area for CH B4 & CH B8 because of that 3 to 1 frequency relationship.
I agree with Nicklyons2 that the Band III aerial is a Membury (CH B12) pointing J-Beam design. |
28th Oct 2013, 11:26 am | #62 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 4,400
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
|
28th Oct 2013, 11:54 am | #63 |
Octode
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 1,880
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
The other day I was checking the Log Periodic that I installed at my mothers place a few years ago, it was all fine. The house is located on higher ground than the the surrounding properties so I was having a gander at the other installations as I've noticed quite a few have recently been changed. The standard of work is mostly deplorable, most use plated steel masts and a few don't even have the coax fastened down! On some of the older installs the steel masts are rusting badly with the rust stains bleeding down the wall or eaves cladding. Seems that the Aerial fitting trade can be as bad as the motor trade.
__________________
BVWS member |
28th Oct 2013, 2:59 pm | #64 |
Pentode
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 223
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
That sounds very much like the aerial we had that I refer to in post # 37, seemed to work as good as band 1/3 combinations that nearby houses used..
|
28th Oct 2013, 4:25 pm | #65 | |
Hexode
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stourbridge, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 434
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Quote:
|
|
28th Oct 2013, 4:27 pm | #66 |
Hexode
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stourbridge, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 434
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
|
29th Oct 2013, 12:36 am | #67 |
Hexode
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 280
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Of course it did, silly mistake on my part.
I meant to point out they were approximately the same distance and orientation from where my uncle lived (or from us for that matter). Last edited by ntscuser; 29th Oct 2013 at 12:53 am. |
29th Oct 2013, 12:52 pm | #68 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,495
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Re post No. 66
Hmm, well the UHF aerials look like Group C/D to me, so I agree that Mendip is a good candidate. In which case where is a Band I H pointing in exactly the same direction as a Band III ? If we think the Band I elements are comparatively short then Channel B5 and Wenvoe come to mind. BTW, I don't think the Band I is a J-Beam, the junction box cover is the wrong shape. So would Bath fit the Bill instead, since the Bath relay used H pol Band III for both BBC and ITV. However looking closely at the picture I noticed that the Band III reflector elements are missing, in which case the J-Beam could be receiving its signal from the rear (J-Beam slots are quite wide-band). Perhaps those more adept at using google map than me could triangulate the directions to solve the mystery! |
29th Oct 2013, 10:10 pm | #69 |
Pentode
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Worcester, Worcs. UK.
Posts: 112
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Using the satellite image and pulling out from the location in the photo, seems to suggest the UHF aerial is on Mendip, the Band 1 is on Wenvoe and the Band 3 is pointing in the Bath direction. (Assuming the reflectors have indeed, dropped off)
__________________
John |
30th Oct 2013, 4:44 pm | #70 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,495
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Thanks John for sorting out the directions. I don't think Bath was all that powerful a relay (approx 500 W ? on CHs B6 & B8), so that could explain the 'Double' aerial - alternatively the original aerial for St Hilary (CH B10) was just turned on its mount...
|
30th Oct 2013, 8:40 pm | #71 |
No Longer a Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 194
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Digressing a bit,
I've a 405 line dipole aerial I put in our loft space for my hifi tuner/amp forty years ago. It even has the old small diameter coax cable, which feeds down into the front room. Currently I'm using it for a Freeview HD TV. I get a perfect picture on all channels, except for 51 & 52, which isn't quite as good, but it's still watchable and doesn't break up. |
30th Oct 2013, 9:26 pm | #72 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 14,010
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
It's amazing what will work in a strong-signal area. Until recently I was using an old aluminium-tube coaxial-dipole designed for 81MHz PMR work and propped-up against the wall to receive 101MHz Classic-FM on my bedroom clock-radio.
|
30th Oct 2013, 10:20 pm | #73 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,349
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
You can indeed get away with very little when you are in a strong signal area and there are no metal structures to cause multi-path reflections. My mother, who lives in Dagenham, East London, is still using the set-top aerial that came with her first dual standard (405/625) TV in 1969, connected by the old small diameter coax feeder. It has two square loops, and simply rests on a joist in the loft pointing in the general direction of Crystal Palace.
I originally installed it as a temporary measure when they first moved in, but as it gave an excellent picture, never found it necessary to fit the sort of multi-element Yagi aerial that her neighbours now have. She used to get ghost- and noise-free analogue reception, and now gets a stong noise-free digital signal on two TVs that are fed via a passive splitter, with no sign of pixellation or freezing. The 405 line VHF aerial (two telescopic arms in a VEE) is still in use, but for FM reception, the 75 ohm coax feeder being connected to the 300ohm balanced aerial sockets without a balun. It too simply rests on a joist. You would have been unlikely to see many 405 line VHF aerials in Dagenham as the council prohibited external roof-mounted aerials in their council houses without a permit. No doubt there are still some mouldering away in lofts. My late aunt, who only lived 2 miles from my mother, had good VHF reception from her loft aerial, but noisy UHF reception. When I went up in her loft to investigate, I found that the UHF aerial was pointing through the party wall, which was coke breeze. Moving the aerial a few yards sideways so it was pointing through the tiles, brought a dramatic improvement. Last edited by emeritus; 30th Oct 2013 at 10:27 pm. |
7th Nov 2013, 7:22 pm | #74 |
Octode
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,420
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Spotted in Bedale, North Riding of Yorkshire earlier today. A choice between TTT Burnhope ch8 and Granada, later YTV Emley Moor on ch10. The BBC aerial is for Holme Moss on ch2.
Brian |
7th Nov 2013, 7:28 pm | #75 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,495
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Re: post no. 74
They look like Belling & Lee Band III by the shape and colour of the junction box covers. I wonder if the Band I one is just a reflector where the dipole box has fractured and fallen off? |
8th Nov 2013, 9:34 am | #76 | |
Octode
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,420
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Quote:
Cheers, Brian |
|
8th Nov 2013, 11:55 am | #77 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,495
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
... my only concern with calling the two aerials Belling & Lee is that the element spacings and the boom supports are not things that I've seen on known Belling & Lee aerials. Rather the gradually increasing element spacings is something that J-Beam did - but the dipole box and the folded dipole being in the plane of the other elements are not J-Beam features. Perhaps these were late version B&Ls from just before they were taken over in 1968? Yet the Band I aerial looks like a 1950s construction... A nerd's puzzle!
Last edited by SteveCG; 8th Nov 2013 at 11:56 am. Reason: typo |
12th Nov 2013, 11:42 am | #78 |
Octode
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,420
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
That's better! The magic of modern technology re-creating the old! Could be a lot better if more time was spent on it.
Cheers, Brian |
20th Feb 2014, 3:32 pm | #79 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,147
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Two wind blown 405 line aerials just a few yards apart in Billingshurst West Sussex this morning. One is directed towards Crystal Palace and the other Rowridge. Both signals would have been well received in this area. I don't think they will be around much longer. Regards, John.
|
21st Feb 2014, 10:44 am | #80 |
Octode
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,420
|
Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013
Excellent photos John. They've been through a lot yet still appear patiently awaiting the return of 405-line television! Full credit to those brave enough to mount these huge structures so high up, remembering a ch1 dipole is about 11ft in length!
I must get round to photographing a seperate ch5 and 8 set in Prudhoe which is still standing. Cheers and many thanks again for the photos. Brian |