EAR Triple Four

[Collaro]

I have to be careful with this post: I don't want to infringe Section C of the Forum Rules.

A record player model from the late 1950s I am really after has been found for sale. I am not in a position to go and look at it and I would need some as yet undeveloped skills to decide if I were to go and collect it if it is able to be restored reasonably easily, or if it is a lost cause.

It has four valves: two ECL82 triode-pentodes in push-pull, as well as an EZ80 full-wave rectifier and an EF86 pentode. There is a crossover network feeding the signal to four speakers.

The turntable goes around sluggishly, so there is power coming through from the transformer. Lights go on (the control panel is lit), but, according to the seller, there is no sound whatsoever from the speakers.

So, here is the motivation for the thread:

1) What, in your experience, is the most likely/probably reason for no sound whatsoever coming out of the speakers.

2) What quick set of tests would you perform on equipment to quickly eliminate or begin to identify where the fault might lie (assuming you have a multimeter and other useful handy portable equipment with you.)

Very limited further info as yet, but waiting to see what the seller could provide me.

But, as a little academic exercise in problem-solving... you are faced with this unit. What would be your attack in terms of diagnosis and problem-solving?

[Peter.N.]

First check would be to see if the valve heaters are alight, if so the next would be to see if it has any HT.

Peter

[Tractorfan]

Hi,
On a record player of this vintage, the turntable motor is fed directly from the mains via the on/off switch, so that won't prove the transformer is OK. However, as the panel lamps are lit, it should be a good 'un.
1970s Japanese equipment often had a 110 volt turntable motor fed from half of the mains transformer primary to avoid the need to fit different motors for the European market.
Cheers, Pete.

[Edward Huggins]

From your description I deduce you are looking at a EAR "Triple Four" record player from 1956/57. These are well made and sound excellent. The autochanger will take it's power directly from the volume/on/off switch. If the valves do not light up at all then check them. Are any of them cloudy/white inside? Your can download the service sheet from this site. What skills do you have with vintage electronics, say on scale of 1 to 10? Do please advise us.

[1100 man]

Hi Mike,
I wouldn't be too concerned about the electronic or mechanical side of things- after all you wouldn't expect it to work being nearly 70 years old without some TLC!!
The cosmetic/ trim is more important as that's much harder to restore or replace if bits are missing.
There are unlikely to be any insurmountable problems electronically. The very worst would be an open circuit output or driver transformer and they can be sourced and replaced.
As suggested above, first check the valve heaters are lit and then for HT on the output valve anodes. It's quite possible that the EZ80 is faulty and there is no HT. If there is absolutely nothing from the speakers, check the wiring, speech coils and output transformer for continuity.
The deck probably has a mains motor so you still need to check the mains transformer (assuming it has one and is not 'live chassis' design!)
All in all, if you like it and you are happy to pay the price, go for it!!
There are much more knowledgeable people than me on here about record players so maybe post the make and model and others can give more specific advice.
Hope that helps, all the best,
Nick

[Collaro]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

From your description I deduce you are looking at a EAR "Triple Four" record player from 1956/57.

Full marks on ID - yes it is

I know these units are really nice once they are up and running properly.

Skills with electronics:
Theoretically, quite a lot - working out schematics with capacitors, resistors, ac coupling, valves, BJTs, impedance matching, Thevenin, Norton, phase diagrams, complex number analysis, Fourier and Laplace Transforms,... all of that is not scary to me and I am a fairly decent physicist/mathematician.

Practically, not so much. I can use breadboards and use a soldering iron - but I am getting back into this hobby seriously because I want to apply and develop my theoretical knowledge.

I am not complacent and have very good wariness of safety and dangers (you may, for example, refer to my earlier threads on practical ways of discharging capacitors) I take nothing for granted and will always avoid any situations where my heart is in the middle of any voltage, HT or otherwise, to earth! [I've had a few mains schocks in my life under various circumstances and in some ways, some may argue with this, but that is the "falling off the bike when learning to ride it" or "breathing in water when learning to swim". Oh, and, many years ago when I was a teenager I discharged a fully charged disposable flash camera capacitor in my hands - those kicks you never forget, even though it would have been well over 30 years ago!!!]

Most importantly and sincerely, I have an amazing respect for practically qualified folk who may not have the "academic theoretical" expertise for one reason or another (my father was one of them, but he could do anything and everything with electronic components - total ex-RAF technician old-school from the 1940s! He taught me sooooooo much when he was alive. I just wish he were around now, it would be great to embark on projects like this together...)

I do have friends that can assist me, but I am patient and will check, double check, triple check and then check again before going into anything I am unsure of. Ultimately, it's the ignorance that does the harm.

I know a lot of people may be screaming "don't play with those amplifiers and associated voltages unless you know what you are doing!" but we all have to start somewhere and I hope my cautious and planned approach seems sensible enough.

Back to the record player in question: the price being asked for the unit in question is way too much in my opinion. The cloth around the wooden speaker grill and the four-knob control panel is missing. That might be a bother to restore. Other than that it looks cosmetically OK. Plan B would be to get it and then have it as cosmetic spare parts if another one were to come up in the same trim but with different deficiencies.

I am happy to purchase the wiring diagrams of this unit from the site, I already have others for record players I already own (mainly the Ferranti/Ecko push pull amplifiers with two ECL82s. I also have an EAR 1960 set which will need work.

[Collaro]

Originally Posted by 1100 man

Hi Mike,
I wouldn't be too concerned about the electronic or mechanical side of things- after all you wouldn't expect it to work being nearly 70 years old without some TLC!!
The cosmetic/ trim is more important as that's much harder to restore or replace if bits are missing.
There are unlikely to be any insurmountable problems electronically. The very worst would be an open circuit output or driver transformer and they can be sourced and replaced.
As suggested above, first check the valve heaters are lit and then for HT on the output valve anodes. It's quite possible that the EZ80 is faulty and there is no HT. If there is absolutely nothing from the speakers, check the wiring, speech coils and output transformer for continuity.
The deck probably has a mains motor so you still need to check the mains transformer (assuming it has one and is not 'live chassis' design!)
All in all, if you like it and you are happy to pay the price, go for it!!
There are much more knowledgeable people than me on here about record players so maybe post the make and model and others can give more specific advice.
Hope that helps, all the best,
Nick

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, Nick.
Yes, my thought was the rectifying valve - if that is kaput then the amp will show no signs of life.
I am waiting for images of the innards which were not provided. A small chance that will highlight an obviuos fault causing the total lack of action.

['LIVEWIRE?']

It is also possible that the cartridge, if it's the original crystal type, will be dead by now. As you may be aware, replacement cartridges do not come cheap, around £35-£50 is typical.

[Herald1360]

I'd say just go for it if you can get it for a price you can afford!


If it's something you really want there's nothing that can't be sorted. The cartridge can always be replaced with a "Chinese Cheapy" for next to nothing and a bit of ingenuity.


After the cosmetics are sorted functional repair is easy enough, though restoration may require patience for suitable parts to turn up.

Also, total silence from a p-p amplifier is unlikely to be a dead output transformer- the usual fault of half the primary open doesn't result in nothing!

[Collaro]

Thanks for this. Basically I need to justify the cost of the trip out to collect it ... it is the missing cloth around the speaker grill which extends to beyond the control panel that bothers me the most. Another one sold recently for less than £20 and that one was working. This guy wants considerably more but may be open to offers.

[RojDW48]

I am inclined to agree with Nick (post 5) in that cosmetic order is paramount with these old things on the grounds that the electronic components you might need are MUCH easier to source than grille cloth, trim etc. But if it's just the sound you are after, I don't suppose that matters so much.

[Edward Huggins]

EAR used an acoustically transparent cloth on all of their record players roughly similar to Vynair and quite different to say, Rexine, which is a solid covering. This is what gave these 1956-1958 period EAR's their quite distinctive design and looking quite different to a "Dansette" type.

[Diabolical Artificer]

No sound could mean anything, loose wire, dodgy switch. A quick test to see if yours mains tfmr is ok is to take the EZ80 out, pins 1 & 7 should give you some high voltage with regards to ground- 200/300v or higher if both probes to the pins. As heaters are hard to see sometimes pins 4 & 5 should be 6.3v. Though sometimes rectifier valves are supplied from a separate winding, check one of the ECL82's.

A quick test for the OPT primary is both OP valves out, power off, both leads to pins 6, you should have continuity or a few k of resistance.

Andy.

[peter_sol]

Hello. It depends what you want a record player for.
Is it to simply play records? To restore something?
To learn more? or all of these.
The player you have your eye on was good for its time but will not be worth it by the time you have bought it, travelled to collect it, recapped the amp, bodged in another cartridge, sorted out the cabinet covering ETC
That Garrard deck with its one piece arm is difficult to fit another cartridge in.
I would look out for something cheap, and I mean very cheap.
I am not trying to be a killjoy by any means just trying to help as on this forum we have been through this time and again.
Good luck however you decide to proceed.
Peter.

[John10b]

Hi
Regarding speaker cloth, you could try speaking to Sid Chaplin at Retrospective, he has been supplying speaker cloth and Rexine for many years. You may been lucky and get a match.
As others have said cosmetics can be the most difficult to tackle, and certainly to get back to original build.
Cheers
John

[peter_sol]

Re the above see post 12

[John10b]

Hi
Yes I did read post 12, point taken, however as I said it's worth asking Sid, many years of experience in supplying the industry and he may be able to advise.
Cheers
John

[Collaro]

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I'm still mulling over how to proceed, but everyone has made good points allowing me to reflect on what to do.

It does indeed raise core questions of why and what one is doing - what is the intent of restoring? I suppose, in a more general context, I would want to have something that works and displays the original glamour, but maybe with a few compromises (e.g. replacing cartridge with one that can play modern LP records - although most of the things I like to play are 78s, 45s and 10" mono LPs from the 50s). Also, any modifications I would want to be readily rolled back (e.g. if the headshell had to be altered to accommodate a new headshell, that would be done with a spare pickup arm, so that the original could be refitted without much difficulty). Missing cloth can be left as it is until some point (patience, patience...) when the right alternative (or, indeed, a donor unit on the scrap heap) can provide what is missing.

[peter_sol]

The one piece arm on that particular Garrard changer is not easily removed to substitute but that record player used different decks depending on avaliability.

[Edward Huggins]

Yes, the option was to have a Collaro RC456 autochanger instead of the Garrard RC120/4H. But perhaps we should all pause for a bit and see if the OP does actually acquire this EAR unit - then we are all in a better position to advise on its restoration.