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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 1:00 am   #81
Paul_RK
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

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Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
Tell me Pioneer Hi Fi is good as I bought mine in 1982 and still works very well only thing I have ever done is resolder the o/put transistors.
Very good until about 1982 - build quality seemed to be driven down after then as with various other Japanese manufacturers. I'm currently using a big 1982-ish Pioneer tuner-amplifier, £10 from South Shields flea market about ten years ago, front a little scarred probably from a journey to the tip but it's needed no attention yet at all.

I've just reverted joyously to a mechanical watch, after finding that seemingly pretty durable ones (promotional footage shows one enduring being run over by a car, among other forms of mistreatment) are still coming out of Tatarstan at around £25. Not premium quality exactly, but a welcome instance of Russia still being able to deliver at least one rewarding range of products at very low cost.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 8:55 am   #82
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

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Very good until about 1982 - build quality seemed to be driven down after then as with various other Japanese manufacturers.
I would certainly agree, I have quite a collection of hi-fi components mainly from the mid 70's. In my opinion the zenith of really good quality kit.

Manufacturers like Sony, Rotel, Pioneer, JVC and Technics produced some excellent kit. Thick aluminium faceplates, proper metal chassis and solid aluminium knobs

The story was the same inside, very good quality transformers, nice big heatsinks and high quality components.

40 years on, and still working perfectly! In fact, the only attention usually needed is a squirt of switch cleaner and bulb replacement.
Cassette decks usually just need a re-lube and replacement belts, unlike later models where unobtainable plastic parts fail.

Anyone who has had an early Japanese video recorder will know just how well they were made, just lifting one could cause a hernia!
The construction of the deck mechanism was truly battleship build quality. yes they were very expensive, but you did get what you paid for.

Just compare these with the last video's made, flimsy plastic construction, nasty plastic and tin decks.

Sadly those days of battleship build quality are well and truly over, at any price level.
The general public just accept that the longevity of a product is no longer what it was, and expect to replace rather than repair anything they buy now.

Mark
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 9:19 am   #83
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

A properly designed and built product should never need repairing and require the minimum of preventative maintenance and safety checks during its designed lifetime. If it lasts far beyond its design life time (which never seems to be publicised for consumer goods) then it's been over engineered.

Joe Public accepts that products have a short life time nowadays and when the product expires views this as an opportunity to get something different.

Having said that, for a long time I couldn't bring myself to dispose of anything which still worked. I've had to do so recently because I need the storage space.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 9:39 am   #84
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

I totally agree with what Mark Pirate has said, add to that these products are utterly serviceable and are a pleasure to own and use.

Paul RK
I too use a Russell Hobbs K2, when I think how much I have spent on kettles over the years and yet this kettle has only had one heater and just carries on and on.

Washing Machines
Having spent 8 years working on re-cycling sites, Miele were probably the least seen machines, I can only think of two that came in over that period and they were according to the owner still working, The most common machines would have been the cheap makes, Beko, Indesit Bush LG followed by modern hotpoints and hoovers, I also saw one Asko again a very well built make.

I use an old Hoover that is 34 years old now, it has a lovely clicky mechanical timer and it is utterly repairable should anything fail, it washes and rinses better than any of 3 modern machines I had.

So for me back in the day you did have premium brands and you could buy them with confidence, today not so easy as has already been said famous brand names have been bought up and attached to cheap junk...........oh the shame

I cannot look at modern products because all I see now is short life disposable in my view junk

Gary
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 10:11 am   #85
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

Gary,

What you said is at the root of my reluctance to purchase anything modern. I have to accept that I may only get 12 months service from it, and when it does fail I almost certainly won't be able to repair it. That to me is a pretty big damper on my spending on such things. But clearly I'm not a typical purchaser as the market is geared against me.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 11:36 am   #86
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

Hello Karen
I see your dilemma.
I remember one couple brought in a virtually mint working Bendix auto from the late 70s, I asked why they were dumping it and they said we have a new kitchen and it comes with a matching Servis washer, after a bit of chat with them they took the Bendix back home, pity really because I would have taken it home.

I would tell people if they can afford it to buy a Miele, for me if I was to buy modern again it would have to be an upper range Miele or V Zug or possibley Asko.

how ever I see a British manufacturer (Ebac)has started making washing machines and they claim to have addressed all the issues that put people off buying new machines, they are well established re-fridgeration manufacturer.

Gary
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 11:38 am   #87
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

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If it lasts far beyond its design life time (which never seems to be publicised for consumer goods) then it's been over engineered.

Joe Public accepts that products have a short life time nowadays and when the product expires views this as an opportunity to get something different.
Could well be true of televisions and mobile 'phones - I'm out of the game myself with my 1984 Beovision and a telephone attached to the wall - but not, surely, of very much else, which will be a prime reason for why design lifetimes aren't generally publicised outside of Miele's 20 years. I can't think there are many folk who view the demise of a fridge, washer or radio after three to five years, or of anything else in which there aren't ongoing changes of technology or style that catch the public imagination, as a welcome event at all.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 11:40 am   #88
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The lifetime of Electronics and Appliances isn't expected to be "unlimited". Electronic products are getting obsolete. There is no use for the customer to pay for a life expectancy of more than 10 years. For most customers a Product is obsolete after five years. I can get as many plasma tvs I want for free if I can live without HDMI. For the ordinary cutomer a set like this if junk. In another few years the current sets are junk because of UHD/4K. In two years FM radio is shut Down here and that leaves Mountains of radios junk.

I saw the Asko brand washing machine was mentioned. It is a well built machine, but they also fail. They have the same water pumps and motors as cheaper machines. I have an Asko. It hasn't been fault free. It is now twenty years old. I got it defective ten years ago. I changed the brushes and it worked until the pump failed. Further faults have been a dry joint in the Electronics and another brush change. It hasn't been fault free, but it allways was possible to repair it. For the ordinary customer each of these repairs would have cost 100-200£. (I get parts for free) The expected expence of the first brush change made the original owner to replace this machine. I can't see the typical customer getting value for their Money buying Premium quality if they're not willing to pay for repairs. Also the price usually doesn't correspond With life expectancy. The same Askoll water pump is used in macines from 200£ to 1000£. They are usually worn out at five years...
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 12:00 pm   #89
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Hans
ah those noisy horrible cheap pumps dreadful things, all 3 modern machines had those, so noisy, what is the point of fitting a super quiet motor and putting a pump that sounds like pneumatic drill when it comes on, fortunately my current hoover has a very quiet shaded pole motor.

Servicing
I agree with you there, people don't want to pay out for a yearly service and check on there machines, the early hoover 1100s gained a reputation for bearing failure, this came about because the main bearings which were taper rollers were pre-stressed with an aluminium crush washer, provided you had the machine serviced once a year an engineer would either re-set the tension and take up any slack or replace it that way the drum bearings rarely if ever failed. So hoover moved to large roller bearings to solve the problem of people not bothering to have the machine serviced.

Life expectancy
You say 10 years in my view customers are not getting anywhere near that with mainstream companies machines more like 3-5 at best

Asko failure, but that is not terrible is it, brushes and belts are expendables anyway, ok a dry joint on a board is a fault but it can happen after so many years, our central heating boiler gets dry joints every 5 years or so one the PCB

If I had the choice of paying £800 for a glitter box LG or a bottom range Miele I know which one I would choose.

I think in the cases I have mentioned I would buy their products with some confidence

Gary
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 1:09 pm   #90
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

Over the years, Philips and Sony are the stand-outs for me. Before Sony arrived we were a Philips family. Much of these brands bought down the years is still working. A couple of 30 year old Grundig items are still going strong.

I have two microwave ovens both dating from the mid 80s and still in daily use. One is a Panasonic and the other a Zanussi with, astonishingly, 'Made in the UK' emblazoned on the corner of the door! The latter, for a small oven, weighs a ton so perhaps its longevity is due to being seriously over-engineered.

I have only had a couple of Samsung and LG products at home but I have also used them at work. None lasted beyond three years.

Consumer items are subject to fashion and ever advancing technology that soon renders today's 'must have' feature passe and then obsolete so, from a manufacturer's point of view, there seems little point in building stuff to last for decades. If an item is still working ten years down the line it will probably be well out of style and junked on the basis of that.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 1:27 pm   #91
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

I am convinced a premium price has always produced a different product but it is not easy to decide the value for money this difference gave. In the late 30s this was often quality of workmanship especially of the cabinet. Sometimes there were also performance differences. This was fairly straight forward though I think often there were aspects of inadvertent over engineering.

Where I have bemused myself is with more recent items. I have a few portable radios in particular some Russian and some B&O sets. The B&O could be considered to have a premium price. In my view it gives me a more elegant radio with controls that are more pleasant to use. However in many cases the Russian radio has superior performance.

The replies to the question emphasise the difference between today's rapid developments and circumstances in the past when building for long life was important. Even today though, there are some activities that can still be served perfectly by things from the past, bathroom scales comes to mind
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 2:23 pm   #92
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

Washing Machine:

15 years ago I looked around to replace an old Electrolux (Zanussi) which was working but getting very rusty (I'd bought it second-hand 20 years previously and though it had a voarcious appetite for new door catches, there had been no failures)

I liked the look of a very expensive (£850 then) AEG '86720update' which spins at 1600rpm, gets category As across the board and does a great job. It has a virtually silent DC motor and you just hear clothes fallung as the drum turns. A premium product and a premium result. I was sufficiently pleased that when I redid my kitchen the following year, I just went for AEG stuff far enough up their range to have 'made in Germany' stickers.

11 years on, the infra-red ceramic hob unit failed. It was a tiny 240v transformer to make 5v for the touch switches. An unusual core size. I couldn't find anything to fit and I was getting fed up of microwaved food. So I bought a new hob. Induction. Miele. The control operation wasn't as convenient as the old AEG, but I get on with the induction heating. I'm happy.

These were definitely appliances priced at a premium. And I think I'm getting my money's worth.

The ultimate in planned obsolescence had to come from a guy called Colin Chapman who long ago said that his race cars should be so lightly built that they won the race, but fell to pieces as they crossed the finish line. I think a lot of electronics manufacturers have achieved this objective. The race is the competition to get the sale, and the warranty expiration date is the finish line.

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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 2:50 pm   #93
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I bought a Miele washing machine to replace a Bosch (itself bought to replace a Hotpoint; which self-destructed spectacularly, the drum jumping right off its suspension, seizing solid and causing the belt to break) which seemed to be showing signs of ageing (making strange noises, suggesting bearings on the way out). It had only ever had one new part (a timer knob; £55, discounted to £50 because the repairer liked my 1973 Seeburg juke box!) in 12 years. The day before the new Miele was to be delivered, a friend asked me if I knew of a washing machine going spare. I said there was one available for the asking, working but no idea for how much longer, but it had to be collected right now. Somehow we got it into the back of an estate car and to the best of my knowledge, it's still going; just noisily and with a bit of play in the drum.

Personally, I think there should only be one "design lifetime" for any product: Forever.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 5:19 pm   #94
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On the subject of racing cars falling apart, Motorbikes today are so light that if you start chucking them up the road they just break apart, everything is hollowed out in the engine, wheels etc........performance costs money.

I have an AEG fridge freezer Hob and oven, the freezer failed once, it cost £7.00 for a new temperature sensor (found the fault on google) that is 6 years old, the oven is 20 years old other than bulbs its worked perfectly, the Hob is about 5 now an induction thingy but it works well so they have proved to be good products. from a well established company.
None of the modern tricked up appliances would tempt me, My vacuum cleaners are a 1935 Hoover upright, 1969 Hoover constellation and a 1980s Hooverturbo, all of them serviceable and very realiable, plus I have two Hoover juniors as back ups should I ever need them
Yes I do live in the past in some ways but its only there I can find products that would have been premium and I can place some faith and trust in.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 6:03 pm   #95
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

Quote:
My vacuum cleaners are a 1935 Hoover upright, 1969 Hoover constellation and a 1980s Hooverturbo, all of them serviceable and very realiable, plus I have two Hoover juniors as back ups should I ever need them
I very much regret selling my 1930's Hoover, but I was offered a price I could not refuse!
I am currently using a 1960's Hoover senior and a very battered Kirby, both are brilliant machines that have never given any trouble and do a better job than any of this modern plastic cp, the Kirby in particular is so over engineered that it would last a lifetime

I too would never buy any new domestic appliance, my current house has all built in appliances (Zanussi) and built in oven and hob (new world) these were three years old when I moved in, and five years later they are all still working so far....

I gave my old 1977 vintage Hotpoint washing machine and 1986 Creda tumble drier to a friend of mine when I moved. Both are still working fine, although I did fit a new drive belt to the dryer a couple of years ago.

My neighbour has just replaced her 4 year old hotpoint washing machine with a cheap Beko, and says she would be happy if it lasted as long as the Hotpoint

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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 6:14 pm   #96
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

Considering domestic 'white goods' for most people the idea that these will last longer than their kitchen-refresh cycle [10 years] is utterly irrelevant: they'd be crazy to expect to take an appliance from their old kitchen and fit it into their new one. For a start, the fixings are probably going to be different. And it won't match the rest of the new kitchen anyway.

For "stand-alone" appliances the same's true: I harboured an old "Lec" refrigerator for 20 years before its thermostat got lazy. It was so old that its energy-efficiency-rating was not known. Being bored with the periodic thermostat sticking and giving either icebox-frozen-to-absolute-zero or floods-of-water-on-the-kitchen-floor I sprung £150 on a new Zanussi A++ energy-rated fridge.

And my annual electricity-bill fell by £40/year.

If I'd only dumped the old Lec ten years earlier i'd *still* have been quids-in, and not had the hassle of floods and wasted, defrosted food.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 6:40 pm   #97
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Interesting these "ECO" energy labels, as they don't factor in the expected longevity of the item, so any bit of old tat can get an energy label and then a year later be dumped because it is uneconomical to repair

In France they considering machines must come with a 5 or 10 year guarentee and a list of how much likely to fail parts will cost and to have fitted in order to achieve an ECO label, that makes absolute sense to me, so the public can make an informed choice about what they are buying

LEC why didn't you just change the thermostat? the fridge will have paid for itself in terms of its longevity

Where I live we have the highest charges for water in the country and my water bill actually dropped by £5.00 a month after I went back to an old style washing machine, and that I would say is because this old machine with its high water levels gets stains out far more effectively than the 3 modern "ECO" machines I had, so I don't have to keep re-washing items and using expensive brand leader powders to do the job.

I have never changed white goods when a kitchen re-fit comes along, I have a bit more flair than just wanting the latest fad in kitchen design for the masses............but I see your point.

Oh yes of course Kirby over engineered and built to last a life time, without a doubt a high quality machine, it helps you are very fit aswell as I remember lowering the brush roll on one and not being able to push it because of the huge suction

Last edited by AC/HL; 3rd Apr 2015 at 1:56 pm. Reason: Off topic aside removed
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 6:59 pm   #98
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A late '50s Lec is still going strong here: I think I'd already bought it, for £10, when a colleague at work in 1984 was lamenting his just over two year old fridge that was about to be scrapped as it wasn't worth buying a new sealed compressor for, something in the £70 region at the time. Hard to guess what the dubious efficiency of the Lec may have cost over three decades or so as against the likelihood of having had to replace a new one several times over by now: but the whole disposability ethos so repels me that I'd rather have the noisy old brute still chugging away in the kitchen even if it's costing me money overall. I do know what it's cost in maintenance (or spoiled food) has been over thirty-odd years, which is zero.

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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 7:01 pm   #99
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Interesting these "ECO" energy labels, as they In France they considering machines must come with a 5 or 10 year guarentee
In Norway there is a 5 year warranty on all articles that are supposed to last five years or more.

Last edited by AC/HL; 3rd Apr 2015 at 2:00 pm. Reason: Politics
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 6:15 am   #100
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Default Re: Was premium quality an illusion?

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In Norway there is a 5 year warranty on all articles that are supposed to last five years or more.
I think a five year lifespan for a new appliance is unacceptable!

As Paul has said, I would rather have an old appliance that lasted decades without any service costs. It may cost more to run, but I value reliability above efficiency.

I have a small 1970's chest freezer in the garage that I rescued back in the 90's,
It is still working perfectly, even the seals are fine
The build quality is far better than any of the 'Premium' brands of today. I call 40 years of service very good indeed.

Quote:
my water bill actually dropped by £5.00 a month after I went back to an old style washing machine, and that I would say is because this old machine with its high water levels gets stains out far more effectively than the 3 modern "ECO" machines I had, so I don't have to keep re-washing items and using expensive brand leader powders to do the job.
My old 70's Hotpoint was a Freecycle score, I got it to replace a seven year old machine that had bearing failure, it gave me four years of perfect service before I moved to a house with built in appliances.
I gave it to a friend five years ago, and it is still working well. The modern 'Eco' Zanussi I have now not only takes two hours to do a wash load, it is noisier and due to the time it takes to do a wash load, it must use more electricity than the old machine. It also does not wash as well either.

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