Was premium quality an illusion?

[Karen O]

Hello All,

Firstly, I'd be surprised if this thread hasn't been covered before so please feel free to redirect me (and delete this thread) if that is the case.

My question concerns 'paying a bit more for good quality'. This is something my dad was always insistent on, and it was something I believed in - until one day I had cause to open a 'premium quality' audio appliance. I felt cheated - slovenly construction, trapped wires, flimsy brackets, and to cap it all, one of those 'orrible transformers that run hot.

Since that day I have been suspicious of even 'good' brands. My question is: Is premium quality dead, or was it always an illusion?

Tis true that good quality stuff is better, it's the working out what is good stuff that is the problem. There is another saying "buy cheap, buy twice". If (when!) I start a new interest I tend to get a cheapie to see if I like it then do some research as to the best (one thing 'tinternet is good for) this way I buy cheap and then buy good, not twice bit more like 1.1 times.

One good pointer to quality is the weight (more likely the density), not many cheap things are heavy, the shipping would cost more than the profit margin. Another good thing about getting good kit is that if the results are poor it's probably down to you.

[AC/HL]

Please limit this discussion to Forum relevant subjects.

[Radio Wrangler]

Open up a lot of audio gear and you'll find mostly air inside, but the size of the box is determined by the panel area needed for controls and display with a good layout. Depth may be set by a need to stack with other devices.

Quality is harder to define

It's one of those you know it when you've got it things which defy description.

It's a long long line from Steepletone to Nagra but where do you fit all the beautifully-made, terrifyingly-expensive overhyped audiophile stuff? Some of it is actually OK, some is OK but doesn;t live up to the hype, and some of it is beautiful, expensive junk.

DAvid

[stevehertz]

In the good old days of 'wireless', then I believe that 'you got what you paid for' - to a large extent. Nowadays, you can spend a fortune on a 'cottage industry', high-end piece of hi-fi and as you say, when you look inside, all that glitters is not gold. But the HMV/Marconi sets (for example) of yore were of excellent quality. These days if you can hoodwink someone into believing that a product is 'quality', that seems to be the way; it's a case of 'buyer beware' I'm afraid.

[wireful3]

I don't think it was an illusion, looking inside my Hacker Mayflower there is no doubt. It has all the characteristics mentioned :- size, weight, attention to detail and performance.

Whether it was specifically advertised as a premium item I don't know but no doubt Hacker assumed people would expect this from their brand.

The other thing to remember is that there are many woodies from the late 1930s still performing as well as they ever did and often quite acceptable performers compared with modern equipment, taking into account the technical developments since they were made.

[mark pirate]

The old saying 'You only get what you pay for' is very true. Quality items always seem to last longer.

Gone are the days when consumer electricals would last many years without any problems. We all know modern stuff is built down to a price, but buying a more expensive item does make sense.

For example, a Panasonic TV is going to cost more than a 'supermarket' brand, the performance will be better and be much more reliable and is likely to outlive a cheap set three times over!

Mark

[Nicklyons2]

I love David's 'benchmarks' in post #4 there is no doubt Nagra would be at the top and Steepletone would be reasonably near the other extreme but the definitive brand at that end has quite a few contenders; the possibility of litigation by Lord Sugar prevents me from putting forward one of my favourite contenders!

However in a way Nagra is a false contender because it is 'professional' equipment and this was and still is built to a completely different standard with different constraints. If we are to consider that which is produced for domestic use I feel we must look at ( using more vintage names ) Fidelity, Dansette etc via Philips, Decca up to B&O and Hacker etc. Now almost all manufacturers, however good, produced the odd turkey and some produced a wide range of equipment and I think, almost certainly in our vintage era, there was a fair degree of getting what you paid for.

If we take say Bush record players in the late 1960s early 70s depending whether you wished to spend £25 ish or £40ish you could have simple serviceable low tech U series valved mono job (RP60) or a solid state, convertible to stereo, smart looking SRP41 & 51. And if you hadn't the money for either you could get a little suitcase Alba for around £15.

I'm a bit less sure now where the facilities are all inside but the cheaper ones are programmed to deny you access. A case in point I encountered was an in-car radio cassette - a de-luxe one failed; myself and a friend in the car business got hold of the same make similar fitting but only AM radio cassette. When, however, we investigated it closely the circuit boards looked the same - to cut a long story short - we swapped the front panel and all the facilities appeared on what had been a basic unit. So someone had paid most likely quite alot extra for a de-luxe stereo radio cassette in their new car when the base model car had the same unit but without the FM buttons. With software this sort of thing must be even easier to 'fix'.

[vidjoman]

Unfortunately many of the names we know and love from the past, Bush Murphy etc., are now just a marketing name attached to rather low quality products given a high price and discounted to make the purchaser think they have a 'bargain' from a reputable maker. There are still some products that work well and last a long time, but the cost is usually high due to low sales and battling against the highly marketed products.

[mark pirate]

Unfortunately many of the names we know and love from the past, Bush Murphy etc., are now just a marketing name attached to rather low quality products given a high price and discounted to make the purchaser think they have a 'bargain' from a reputable maker.

You can add Alba to that list as well.
My parents always bought Bush products and were never let down by them.
Our 405 line TV never needed repair in over 17 years, their radiogram was still working as good as new after 30 years. Sadly all these quality manufacturers are no more.

We all know how well built vintage kit is, even at the cheaper end of the market. but the writing was on the wall by the early 1960's

British product quality declined badly in the 1970's, but the Japanese electronics were well made and extremely reliable in that period, and finally killed off what british manufacturers were left.

Now even the quality Japanese manufacturers have sold out. Hitachi is now just a badge on a Vestel set!

There seems to be very little brand loyalty these days, most people just buy on price.

Mark

[Andrew2]

I think paying more can indeed bring benefits, but not always. When I was in the TV trade, people from the posh end of town used to bring their Dynatrons, B&O and such-like in for repair and they always liked to mention the fact that 'we always go for quality, even if it costs a bit more'.
Of course, hidden in the Dynatron was a bog-standard Pye chassis and I remember being somewhat let down when I whipped the top off a very sleek B&O music centre (all tinted perspex and brushed ally) to see some pretty crude construction methods inside! It put me right off!
Kudos to Sony, who (certainly in the 80's) were definitely a cut above the pack.

[Karen O]

Sony is a clear exception to my suspicions - I've never opened a Sony and had cause to shudder (or for that matter, a Phillips). The item in my OP was an early 80s stereo cassette recorder (NOT pocket type) but I can't recall the brand.

[julie_m]

You can add Panasonic as another name worth paying the extra for. I've only ever known one Panasonic anything break, and that was a microwave oven that was subjected to serious continuous use for much longer than would be the case in a typical domestic kitchen. (Even then, it might have been fixable; and I would certainly have taken a punt on it if I had wanted a microwave .....) A friend of mine had a seemingly indestructible Panasonic mobile phone, that just stubbornly refused to die; even the battery kept on holding its charge. It was eventually replaced, even though it still answered calls and sent and received text messages and would go 48 hours between charges, with a smartphone. A Panasonic stereo radio / CD player with a timer has woken me every morning for at least fifteen years, I use a Panasonic breadmaker and my present -- and longest-lasting, to date -- DVD recorder is also a Panasonic.

[Radio Wrangler]

I remember HP hired a quality control guru to come and present a course. He opened with an explanation of what the word meant, using a mundane example: He had once driven along a road past a broken-down Rolls Royce which was being winched onto a transporter. His Sierra, he explained, was the higher quality car because it was doing what it was supposed to do. The Rolls was the higher prestige car, even though it was not performing as required.

We have a number of prestige names still on the go in the radio business, though they are now operated by quite different firms and their products no longer show the properties which earned the prestige. Public memory is so long-lived that their prestige still enhances sales and allows elevated prices.

In the 1980s, the likes of Hitachi, Panasonic, and Sony built good reputations for decent performance and excellent reliability. They did not kill off the British radio and TV industry, the brits did that to themselves - exactly as the motorbike makers had done two decades earlier.

High quality in the shape of on-target performance and high reliability is the domain now of mass manufacturers with high turnover and good quality control systems. Their turnover makes great care in design and parts selection worthwhile, their turnover gives statisitcally valid data on even low failure rates.

The makers of high class handmade prestige stuff don't have the funds and don't have the statistical populations to be able to do such a good job of eradicating problems. They can't afford the tooling costs of highly mechanised manufacture to remove human variability. Yes, hand built gives a certain charm and prestige, but i t doesn't bring the level of dependabiliy And high quality means dependable operation within its specifications. High performance means just that - when it's working Prestige means it impresses others.

David

[Maarten]

Beware. The cheaper Panasonic TV sets are made by TPV (better than Vestel but worse than real Panasonic).

[russell_w_b]

Isn't Technics to Panasonic as Lexus is to Toyota?

[Radio Wrangler]

Brand names of the Matsushita Empire, along with some other well known names

David

[Andrew2]

Originally Posted by russell_w_b

Isn't Technics to Panasonic as Lexus is to Toyota?

Yes, and in my experience (we were Panasonic/Technics agants) the Technics stuff was built and finished to a higher standard than the Pana stuff, which itself was good, as mentioned by ajs derby.
We were also agents for Sharp, and they tried a similar approach with their Optonica range. However, they seemed to think that adding flashing leds etc would justify the higher price. The innards were of the normal Sharp standard and the outward appearance was IMO worse than the Sharp stuff.

On the subject of microwaves, we have had a Sharp combined 900 watt microwave/twin grill/oven for nigh on 20 years and it has never put a foot wrong.

[russell_w_b]

Matsushita is the parent company, but I was under the impression that there was a hierarchy of sub-names which extends to hierarchy of quality too. I mean, they are all good quality products, but Technics stuff would be finished better, may use better quality components, and so may cost more.

It happens all over: Seiko and Pulsar watches being a good example. And Miyota movements (Citizen) are fitted to Sekonda, Ingersoll and other watches where brand-names have lost all relevance, as they have with consumer electronics.

I think manufacturers of any consumer goods (and some professional ones) will try to get away with as much as they can to save money by dressing things up as 'improvements', which they might or might not be; the wristwatch market being an extreme example.

Like cameras, watches, radios, televisions... Twice the price will not mean twice the quality (however that is defined) or longevity. I also suspect that manufacturers play on 'badge engineering' to woo older customers who value brand loyalty.

[mhennessy]

Regarding Technics/Panasonic, I thought it more about a division of product lines rather than quality levels.

As far as I know, Technics stuff was hi-fi. Whereas Panasonic was TV, video, portable audio, and "mid-fi" (Mum still has a Panasonic midi system), and other stuff as well (microwave ovens have already been mentioned, and we have one). I don't recall any efforts to market Panasonic gear to the hi-fi crowd.

Matsushita was indeed the parent company, but I leaned a few months ago that they have changed their name to "Panasonic Corporation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panasonic - this change happened back in 2008.

The Technics brand was dropped a while back, but happily, they have resurrected it. I always liked the Technics hi-fi stuff, and still have a fair bit of it here, all working well after 20+ years. Many in the hi-fi "scene" are very snobby about Technics, looking down on it rather unfairly. They are wrong to do so. However, we don't just hear with our ears

Back to the main topic, it's interesting to reflect that the Hacker radios that I'm so fond of use the same basic components as the rest of the UK radio industry back then. They used AF117s, for example, and the troublesome "Lockfit" transistors. They used the same capacitors and resistors as most of the others...

But the quality comes from the design - both the basic circuit design and the modular construction. And both factors help with future maintenance. And a lot of the budget went towards the enclosures, which were always very elaborate compared to a lot of the competition. Just how expensive must it have been to have tooled up for all that extruded aluminium? Or hand-built those padded cases?

In fairness, away from the basic resistors, capacitors and transistors, they did permit some extravagance in the choice of larger components like tuning capacitors, IF coils, loudspeakers, turntables, etc. And the use of brass machine screws where most would use self-tapping fixings or rivets. And simple things like including a silk-screen on the PCB. It all helps, but it all costs.

Today, as far as mass-market stuff is concerned, I really don't think that brand or purchase price signifies anything about quality. Sadly, everything is made as cheaply as absolutely possible, and is sold for whatever the market will sustain. A good friend used to have a high position in a company that manufactured goods for the supermarkets, and some of his stories are absolutely shocking. They made a significant loss on most "value" brand products (e.g. cheap toasters, kettles, etc), but made decent margins on the premium brands which sold for many times more than the "value" stuff. But the premium stuff cost no more to manufacture, and was no "better" than the cheap items in terms of quality and longevity.

Things are slightly different in other walks of life, but ultimately - as an expert said to me a few months back - it's about "reasonable products and world-class marketing". Quite sobering, really :-(