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Old 6th Sep 2014, 3:21 pm   #81
paulsherwin
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The EF50 was only released in 1939. I'm sure I remember a story about all the factory stock and some tooling being spirited from Eindhoven to Britain as the Germans were invading.

Yes, found it: http://www.dos4ever.com/EF50/EF50.html
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 3:31 pm   #82
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Kevin, that would be my supposition, too- I can visualise a scenario where, by about Take 3, the director would have said, "Hmmmm, not really what people think of as a valve, is it, come to think of it?" and said red EF50 would be swapped for a more obvious "valve".

Sort of connected with the thread theme, so please bear with me, but about 20 years ago, I was staying in a typical, slightly past-its-best B+B in one of the sea-side towns with work. Coming down for breakfast, there was just one other person in the room, an elderly chap in formal but decades-eclipsed attire. I sat on the next table, swapping the customary pleasantries. However, when I mentioned that it was in connection with TV broadcasting that brought me there, his demeanour somewhat changed. He said that he had worked in radar development and research during the war- from that point I was subjected to a long haranguing- you TV people, you think you did it all and claim all the glory, well it was us in radar that did all the hard development work, you would have been no-where if it wasn't for us, on and on. CRTs, receivers, transmitters, time-bases- all the work of the radar people, TV had ridden on the back of it.

Well, I was a bit put-out and taken aback- apart from the fact that I hadn't even been a twinkle in the eye for some decades after the war had finished, I would have been fascinated to have had a long conversation with him- early TV and early radar are both things that interest me, as much for the concurrency and technology interchange as anything. Instead of which, I was left feeling a bit puzzled- I can happily be a good listener and smile inwardly at strong/controversial statements but this was, well, rude. Basically. Poor old fellow, I wonder what had put such a chip on his shoulder? I haven't exhaustively researched the subject but I imagine that TV and radar both had fields of development that assisted the other, certainly in the early days and before they were each refined so highly that they had effectively diverged. I'm aware that there is ambiguity concerning Blumlein's precise activities and whereabouts between about 1938 and his death- the obvious conclusion that he was more and more deeply involved in leading-edge military work. It wouldn't be at all surprising to hear that many others had been uprooted/shifted from what they had been getting their teeth into pre-war and that it hadn't always pleased them.

Ho hum.
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 4:08 pm   #83
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I got around to actually watchng the program last night and I can see [view it?] from both sides of the discussion. Yes it was a bit clunky in the dialogue scripting and direction [especially at first] but the actors overcame a lot of this and some scenes were quite affecting. It was hard to get the technical and political background across for a general audience I suppose but the fishing analogy wasn't that bad and they did manage to get part of the later story across ie moving to higher frequencies to achieve more range.
To me it wasn't disappointing in the way that the Joe Meek film turned out but if I'm not mistaken, one of the actors in Castles is common to both films.
Telstar [Mike] may confirm this.

Personally I think the Hetz reference was probaly a mistake or perhaps an attempt to relate to techies of different generations ][unlikely I think].
I seem to recall some some of International push towards using "Hertz" generally towards the end of the seventies?

As for the ubiquitous EF50? Well the Guasrdian reviewer on Friday said the program was "a liittle hammy" and that the "toffs versus tieless" cliche was "overplayed". What I've read tends to suggest maybe not! The actors get a good press though in this "fabulous story of plucky ingenuity"

However, the final comment really shows why you can't get too technical-

[It was] "Interesting to see the part television played in it;that's why small powerfull valves, which made the whole chain of listening stations possible, were developed-for TV. Television saved us from the Luftwaffe you could say."

NO you couldn't-not at all as it was the use of the wartime EF50's that developed Television and Computers post war. This is an unfortunate reversal of history straight out of Orwell's Ministry of Truth but you can see why someone unfamiliar with the subject might get confused.
I enjoyed it all anyway.

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PS I found Robert Dekker's site
"EF50 The Valve That Helped To Win The War" very informative

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Old 6th Sep 2014, 4:40 pm   #84
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

It's true that the EF50 was developed as a TV valve, and it was actually used in a few prototypes in 1939, but I don't believe it was used in any sets actually on the market before the war. There was a lot of overlap between TV and radar development in the 30s, and I've seen it suggested that the government was keen to encourage BBC TV transmissions as a cover for radar work.
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 4:43 pm   #85
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I have just watched the show this morning and was rather disappointed.
Getting terms wrong especially that this programme was linked to the OU is unacceptable. When I was at college in the late 1960's it was clearly cycles per second. In the 1930's frequency, VHF, could not be measured accurately so wavelength was used.
I also thought it was the invention of the magnatron that allowed high power high frequency radar transmissions not valves like the ones in the back of a TV set!
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 4:49 pm   #86
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The EF50 allowed better receivers to be built, particularly for use in aircraft.
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 5:06 pm   #87
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Having in my posession one of the valves used in the chain home transmitter, Magnetrons they are not....

However, once frequency went up, (1.5metres) and above then development of the Magnetron was crucial, centimetric RADAR was where the magnetron really mattered.

RDF1 (author slips my mind) is an excellent read for the history of CH development, there are also a number of other titles that have been written in more recent times that benefit from access to archived documents - in all cases though, the author tends to put their slant onto the way history played out.

As for said program, If you suspend all technical knowledge, most of your historical knowledge, and just take the program at face value, there arent any better offerings to see for 90 minutes on midweek television.

Having more than a passing interest in the history of RADAR, I still enjoyed the program.

The production team could have sourced some proper CH atrefacts to use as props though - there is a full CH tower at Stenigot, and at Great Baddow!
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 5:41 pm   #88
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

My oh my ! Spleens have been vented on both sides, well & truely. Far more interesting than the Yes/No Campaign that we're being subjected to up here.
No doubt our thoughts on the program & radar developement might well go on as long as the "AVO Survey". If the number of posts in the last two days is anything to go by.
However, having seen a number of interesting comments within these thread posts relating to RV Jones, my interest in his work has been re-awakened. I hadn't intended delving into his past work for another year or two. Visits to the Fraser Noble Building(Natural Philosophy) at Aberdeen University, about three years ago, (to save old test equipment from the dreaded skip), and actually aquiring some of his personal test equipment - prompted my initial interest.
Prahaps, if a handful of guys fancy contributing to a seperate RV Jones thread, and the Moderators would move this post as an independant thread - then we could natter awa without cluttering up this Castles in the Sky thread.

Regards, David
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 5:52 pm   #89
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Radars huge contribution to the early war effort was undoubtably the ability to detect the enemy aircraft at distance and allow the relatively limited RAF resources time to intercept. But credit should be given and us techies may be guilty of not fully appreciating this, to the organisation and dissemination of the information that the quite crude radar provided into an effective defence force. I believe that the very effective systems for this organisation of the chain home stations was done but a Scotsman whose name escapes me for the moment. A shame as we have a lot to thanks him for.
The German radar was not nearly so well organised and so it's effectiveness was not as it could have and should have been.
The magnetrons enabled air to ground radar and the shorter wavelength provided far superior resolution for both target finding and enabling the detection and destruction of surfaced U boats at night. In fact I believe I am correct in saying that the Vulcans that bombed Port Stanley used an air to ground system not that different than was being used in Lancaster's by the end of the war.
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 7:50 pm   #90
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
As brunel mentioned earlier - I too hope that RV Jones receives a place of significance in the program. Later in life he became Prof. Jones at Aberdeen University
I didn't note any mention of R.V.Jones. But then the characters weren't exactly introduced. You have to know the story to understand that "Taffy" was probably Taffy Bowen.

I'm not sure R.V.Jones was really involved in this bit of the story - he seems to have come to prominence once the battle of the beams started much later on.

The film majored on the bad feeling between Lindemann and Tizard, with its spill-over on to the RDF work at Bawdsey Manor. With those kind of schoolboy antics, its a wonder anything was achieved at all. By all reports, the Germans were even worse on this score, with cowtowing to hierarchies and armed camps supposedly on the same side. Note how early in the film there was a big to-do about not wearing ties and not going to to the "right" university. We easily forget how traditional Britain was back then.

I was disappointed that as usual the technical stuff was poor. Talk of 100s of watts and then kWs and then showing a picture of domestic radio valves.....and then pictures of traces on a GEE indicator with all the connectors left unconnected.......

I am sure being a "technical consultant" on one of these films must be a thankless task, as the lovies insist that no-one really cares about the technicalities. But just use a word in the script that wasn't in common usage at the time, and there will be letters to the Times.....


Richard
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 8:01 pm   #91
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The team working on centimetric Radar was funded by the navy. They must have had their political act better sorted for getting funds. They'd used Rayleigh's criterion to decide what wavelength was needed to get a narrow enough beam to spot submarines from an antenna small enough to go on a destroyer. It took some amount of guts to decide to try to develop something such a huge step beyond what was currently the state of the art in RF power and frequency.

Amusingly Hull's split-anode magnetron was being groomed for the LO position, and the klystron for the PA.

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Old 6th Sep 2014, 8:11 pm   #92
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Just a note on the use of Hertz. I started technical college in 1968 (Radio, TV & electronics) and our Radio Theory lecturer made a point of moaning repeatedly that he had to use 'this damned Hertz'. He told us he just couldn't stop saying 'cycles per second' as he had been using it for so long.
I don't recall seeing the word used in the hobby magazines of the time and it was new to me when I started college.
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 8:33 pm   #93
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The EF50 was developed for pre-war tv use and was extensivel used in all sorts of WW2 Radar equipments.

Have a look at this web site; it gives a lot of interesting information.

dos4ever.com/EF50/EF50.html
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Old 6th Sep 2014, 10:00 pm   #94
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Yes more EF50 stuff. What a workhorse! I was very interested in Turret slugs hotel anecdote [p82*] having missed it earlier. After absorbing all these interesting postings, I'm thinking that the TV v Radar debate may be a bit of an illusion. In one sense the work on TV with the early EF50's could perhaps be said to give television an early credit [even if no sets were actually being produced circa 1939]. On the other hand, I'm sure the Guardian reviewer [p83*] wasn't showing any fine grasp and probaly believed that TV was still going at that point so Radar gets the coconut.
It's how you interpret concurrent research I suppose.
Dave W

[No spleens were vented in the making of this post.

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Old 6th Sep 2014, 10:54 pm   #95
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

"Winning the Radar War" by Jack Nissen and A W Cockerill (ISBN 0-7090-3731-7) is another book on radar development that's well worth a read.
Nissen worked on the early radar systems and was the technician sent to investigate a Freya radar during the raid on Dieppe.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 7:03 am   #96
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I think it was the shift to the SI system of units which brought in the change from CPS to Hertz. At least in this case the conversion factor was 1:1 and ol' Heinrich had done some good work and had earned a bit of immortality.

For a physical parameter whose units have been dragged through everything imaginable, try pressure. "QNH 1013 hectopascals" even now they have to breach the usual 10^3 prefix series to make the numbers familiar.

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Old 7th Sep 2014, 8:42 am   #97
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Not knowing a great deal about radio I thought the program was alright. Easy to knock holes in it, for those who are older and know about the subject. For younger viewers the second world war and the pre computor age is hard to relate to. At least the film showed, a bit clumsily I admit, how unprepared we were before the war. The German war machine was far superior and experienced due to fighting in the Spanish Civil war than ours. Thank God for bungling of Hitler and Goering which probably had more to do with their defeat than the brains and courage displayed by W.W and his contempories.

What was the the thing they pinched from the Navy ? A bit hard to tell I suppose. Both it and the bit of kit they called "old Faithfull" ( in the second part of "the test" ) looked to my eyes more like post war audio amplifiers.

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Old 7th Sep 2014, 10:43 am   #98
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The valve that was used was an NT46 silica glass envelope valve. The Navy had developed a number of high powered silica glass envelope valves for use in their WT transmitters.

In none of the numerous books and articles that I have read on early RDF developments was it ever mentioned that the valves were "liberated" from the Navy nor that Watson Watt ever used the fishing line analogy to "sell" the idea of RDF to the Tizzard committee. I think these were entirely inventions of the director of Castles in the Sky.


Extract from dos4ever.com/EF50/EF50.html

In order to preserve secrecy it was decided to erect the first Radar system not at Slough, but at a remote site at Orfordness. This was a remote split of salt marsh, already owned by the Air Ministry that could be reached by boat from Orford. The group of three complimented by George Willis - the technical assistant of Bainbridge-Bell - arrived at Orfordness on the 13th of May 1935. During the first weeks this small group worked like slaves to have the first system installed. The receiver and the cahode-ray indicator were basically identical to the set-up for detecting thunderstorms at Slough and were assembled by Wilkins and Bainbridge-Bell. The transmitter was of a completely new design and the responsibility of Bowen. It was basically a couple of NT46 valves, the highest transmitting power valves used by the British Navy, used in a push-pull arrangement. With the filament consuming some 20 amps at 20 volts and the anode voltage pushed to 12000 volts, the transmitter eventually reached an output power of 200 kilowatts. Within a month on Monday the 17th of June the first echo's from a Scapa flying boat were received from a distance of 17 miles.


Figure 2.5 The NT46, the transmitter tube used in the first Radar experiments in Orfordness in May 1935. The valve measures 500x105 mm and nominally draws 40A of filament current at 15V and is rated at a maximum anode voltage of 10000V.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 1:04 pm   #99
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I find the comments interesting and it has prompted me to look at the programme again. As a drama it was not too bad but I am never too keen on docudramas. Often the facts are adjusted to fit the action. Words are put into peoples mouths that they would never have used. It did though make me rethink about mid 30s technology especially the terms used. I realised that the senior people could well have had their technical education at the beginning of the last century. Many of the terms we use now would certainly not have been second nature to them.

I must confess my own technical education took place during the transition towards SI units, a mixture of Imperial, CGS, MKS and SI units was common. Electrical engineers tended to use MKS/SI units. Physicists still favoured CGS, in fact they were sometimes all used during a single conversation. The only saving grace I recall is that capacitance was never expressed in Jars.
I have a tape made by EMI about their research at that time including recordings made during stereo research. The impression I gained about labs in those days was very different from my own experiences much later. Conversation was very formal. Alan Blumlein addressed his assistants by surname and I had a vision of the senior people dressed in suits and ties, with the helpers in brown lab coats. This is something I guess persisted even into the 1950s half a century ago.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 2:17 pm   #100
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I did watch it and enjoyed it. Yes it was a bit techno lite but the storey was good and came across well. I think it did put over how this team were operating beyond the cutting edge of the days technology with the restraints of a shoe string budget and the official secrets act. Also it showed the considerable opposition and hostility from members of the air ministry that the team faced.
It's interesting to note how the valves they required were eventually found in the latest TV sets of the day. After the war the TV industry then benefited from the developments in valves and circuits made for radar during the war.
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