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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 2:54 pm   #1
TNC
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Default Band 3 in Ireland

I recently spent a pleasant (and amazingly dry and sunny!) week in Ireland and was intrigued to see a great number of Band 3 aerials atop chimneys.
In many cases these were most definitely new (or nearly new) unlike the odd one or two that can still be spotted in England.
Can someone tell me for what use they are intended in the YOOL 2005??
Thanks,
Trevor.
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:02 pm   #2
jdrysdale
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNC
I recently spent a pleasant (and amazingly dry and sunny!) week in Ireland and was intrigued to see a great number of Band 3 aerials atop chimneys.
In many cases these were most definitely new (or nearly new) unlike the odd one or two that can still be spotted in England.
Can someone tell me for what use they are intended in the YOOL 2005??
Thanks,
Trevor.
Perhaps I can answer your query, Band 3 (VHF) is used by the National TV station RTE for its two main stations across most of the country, UHF is used for the two 'other' channels TG4 and TV3. Most persons would have these aerials so that they can have the 'irish' channels in any room in addition to the digital in the main room. At least thats my set up any way.
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:20 pm   #3
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Was there ever Band I television in Ireland (Eire) too, during the 405 period ?
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:26 pm   #4
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panrock
Was there ever Band I television in Ireland (Eire) too, during the 405 period ?
Don;t know what 405 period is, but Band one 60ish mhz range was used and was still available until recently

RTE TV MAIN TRANSMITTERS
Band 1 (Low VHF) Channels are A,B,C (Band 1 no longer used for TV transmission)
Band 3 (High VHF) Channels are D,E,F,G,H,I,J (Ch J no longer used for TV transmission)
UHF Channels are 21-69

SITE(County) RTE1 NET2 TV3 TG4 Pol. E.R.P. SERVICE AREA
CAIRN HILL (Longford) 40 43 46 50 H 800kW Midlands
CLERMONT CARN(Louth) 52 56 66 68 V 250kW North-East
HOLYWELL HILL(Donegal) 23 26 29 33 H 20kW North Donegal
KIPPURE (Wicklow) E H 62 59 H/H 160kW/500kW East
MAGHERA (Clare) E H 66 68 V/H 200kW/500kW
Mid-West
MT. LEINSTER(Carlow) F I 26 23 V/H 230kW/500kW South-East
Site 796m asl, mast 122m agl
MULLAGHANISH(Cork) D G 27 31 V/H 220kW/500kW South-West
SPUR HILL (Cork) 53 57 60 63 H 10kW Cork city/Lee valley
THREE ROCK (Dublin) 29 33 35 55 H 25kW Dublin
TRUSKMORE(Sligo) I G 60 63 H/H 280kW/500kW North-West
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:37 pm   #5
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

People started watching TV in the Republic before RTE started. All over Dublin people had *huge* band I arrays pointing at Holme Moss. When RTE started they planned to be a 625 line service only, but 405 line transmissions were started in the East because of the large installed base of UK spec tellies.

Ireland is a sparsely populated country apart from Dublin, and it makes sense to use big VHF transmitters for terrestrial TV. AFAIK Britain is the only European country to have a UHF-only TV system.

Best regards, Paul
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:43 pm   #6
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Thanks for such an exhaustive reply. Sorry, I should have been clearer. '405' refers to the period (pre 1984 in the UK) when the UK's original television system which used a 405-line picture (dating from 1936 originally) remained in use. This broadcast on Band I (BBC) and Band III (mainly ITA).

In the UK the channels which occupied Band I were numbered 1 to 5. There was also a Band I transmitter at Divis in Northern Ireland.

If 405-line television was indeed also transmitted in (southern) Ireland, it's unlikely your present day VHF channel allocations were used, since the old 405-line signal occupied less bandwidth than the later 625-line signal.

Steve
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:57 pm   #7
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

RTE transmitted 405 line signals from Mt Kippure near Dublin. Also other sites.


http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rlogue/405.htm
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 4:59 pm   #8
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Kippure and Mt Leinster Band 3 channels are easily receivable and watchable in the English west midlands when there is tropo lift. As the only difference between UK and Eire colour TV standards is the use of VHF, TVs sold on the UK domestic market which have VHF as well as UHF are all thats needed plus a suitable aerial. To a much lesser extent other Irish Band 3 transmitters and UHF channels can be received when there is a lift but not really up to watchable quality for any length of time.
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 5:33 pm   #9
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppppenguin
RTE transmitted 405 line signals from Mt Kippure near Dublin. Also other sites.


http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rlogue/405.htm
Thanks Jeffrey. This really explains it !

Quoting from the site:

>And so it came to pass that an "Irish Solution to an Irish Problem" was adopted. Telefis Eireann would broadcast in 625 lines VHF across the country, however in the North and East of Ireland where BBC and ITV were available Telefis Eireann would also be available on 405 lines for those viewers who already had a 405 line set.

So presumably Telefis Eireann must have been using standards converters from quite early on ?

But later...

>according to more than one former RTE engineering source the converter blew up and afterwards the 405 line service was provided by a 405 line camera pointing at a monitor!



Quote:
Originally Posted by turret_tuner
Kippure and Mt Leinster Band 3 channels are easily receivable and watchable in the English west midlands when there is tropo lift. As the only difference between UK and Eire colour TV standards is the use of VHF, TVs sold on the UK domestic market which have VHF as well as UHF are all thats needed plus a suitable aerial. To a much lesser extent other Irish Band 3 transmitters and UHF channels can be received when there is a lift but not really up to watchable quality for any length of time.
I live in the W. Mids and have an old (1982) 5-inch JVC CX-610GB multi-standard colour tv. I'll give it a go !

Steve
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Old 22nd Jun 2005, 11:02 pm   #10
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Thanks chaps for such an interesting and detailed set of comments.
In my ignorance I have often wondered how much wider the VHF bandwidth of a 625 colour signal is versus that of a 405 monochrome - would I be right in assuming that using say channels 1-12 (Bands 1 and 3) one might only be able to fit in three or four 625 colour channels??...or am I really off-beam?
Trevor.
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 7:33 am   #11
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

405 used a 5MHz channel. 625 system I uses 8MHz channels. So about 8 system I channels possible spread over bands 1 and 3.
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 10:35 am   #12
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Thanks once again for your technical expertise Jeffrey.

Trevor.
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 11:27 am   #13
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

625 system I uses 8MHz channels

Yes, on band IV and V

but on band I and III it takes 7MHz (CCIR).

Darius
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 12:01 pm   #14
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Darius, are you sure about that for System I? A 7MHz channel is OK for system B/G where the sound carrier is 5.5MHz from vision but system I has 6MHz sound spacing and 1.25MHz vestigial sideband.

Ireland uses system I on VHF with 8MHz channels:

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/7225/tvch.html
(See near bottom of page for VHF channels)
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 2:44 pm   #15
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Oh Jeffrey you are right!
They don't use the CCIR Frequencys on VHF. We have 8 channels in
band III here.

Hm they can not use this bandwith because of the color at 4,4MHz.

Kind regards
Darius
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 4:39 pm   #16
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Ireland seems to be going there own way. It was only a few years ago that they closed their high powered Band 1 transmitter at Maghera down to be replaced by a Band 3 transmitter instead of the more usual UHF channel. As RTE do not seem to be in any hurry to switch to digital tv or radio it looks like their analogue tv and radio networks are going to be around for a few years. Could be our only source of off air analogue signals after 2008
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 6:34 pm   #17
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

It has to be said that the reception that you can get from band 3 is excellant. What annoys me though is I pay a TV liscense like in the UK but RTE is making no efforts what so ever to go digital (other than through BskyB). I am wathching my choice of games at wibledon (excuse spelling) on BBC digital and in my view that is an excellant service.
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Old 24th Jun 2005, 7:09 pm   #18
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

I wouldnt worry about going digital--why bother? We will see the analogue signals continuing for another 6-7 years yet, at least............................buy an integrated set then..................................they have tried it in a little Welsh village, yes...........................................diff erent story about London, or Manchester, or Cheltenham etc..............................ianj
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Old 24th Jun 2005, 9:24 pm   #19
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

Yesterday I picked up a strange signal on 94.00Mhz. I thought it was Welsh but after a bit of detective work I found it was Irelands Radio na G Irish language station from the Mt Leinster transmitter. The signal was audible for many hours just using a portable radio with it's telescopic rod aerial.
It's obviously down to the weather conditions but it does prove that VHF signals from the higher powered transmitters can reach more inland parts of the UK.
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Old 24th Jun 2005, 11:38 pm   #20
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Default Re: Band 3 in Ireland

It may be of interest in these times of turbulent weather conditions for anyone equipped with a Band 3 tv tuner and a suitable aerial to direct their aerial towards the Irish Republic, Band 3 transmissions have been received in this area, not by me but by a reliable source.
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