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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 14th Jan 2018, 5:43 pm   #21
sp10mk11
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

TIMTAPE
That's a very interesting article about fecr tape and how it works, it must have been a nightmare to get the layers even, though I suppose it is not easy on any tape.
And TDK obviously thought they could do better than chrome tape having dropped there own quickly (KR Krome) to then replace it with SA
I do remember reviews of cassette decks where BASF Super chrome was the best performing in a particular machine it always required higher levels of biasing compared to the pseudo chromes so those machines were obviously set up for it.
Argghh the maze that is and was audio..................all good fun.....some times
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 5:54 pm   #22
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

A few German makers like Eumig made decks calibrated for the BASF standards, but this made them perform badly with anything else. Dual had their decks OEMd in Japan so followed the Japanese standards.

The really expensive decks like the top of the range Naks could auto calibrate of course.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 11:42 pm   #23
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Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
...Incidentally, the only other tapes I have ever had print-though issues with was a set of talking book cassettes ...
Unaccompanied speech in a quiet studio was brilliant for exposing the slightest bit of print through. All those silences between the words, and with time the print through only got worse. With digital, print through is but a memory...

Last edited by TIMTAPE; 15th Jan 2018 at 12:08 am.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 1:31 pm   #24
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

Can't print-through be significantly worsened by subjecting the tape to a magnetic field? I was thinking that talking books might not have been exceptionally well taken care of in terms of where the tapes were stored by various library customers, i.e. on speakers or near headphones, etc. Or if the library in question had a theft prevention system which relied on the magnetization/demagnetization of something in the material being on loan.

I have a reel of tape that I use for trying out unknown recorders that I don't really care about, and it's now exhibiting significant print-through, but I'm also not careful about how I leave it lying around the workbench for the reason I just mentioned.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 3:00 pm   #25
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

I never had any problem with any of the many other other talking books we borrowed, and in the case in point it was a brand new recording and we were the first borrower. Possibly something happened between manufacture and delivery.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 4:06 pm   #26
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Hard to know without actually listening to it and knowing where and why the print through appeared. But people can confuse "print through" and "cross talk". Cross talk is adjacent tracks bleeding. Print through is about adjacent tape winds magnetising one another but the loud sections are the big problem.

We had big print through issues on talking book reel master tapes due to using Long Play tapes rather than thicker based Standard Play tapes. But also because there was no limiting of the tape magnetisation. If the narrator shouted even a single word, it went like that straight onto the tape. Sometimes you could hear that one word repeat itself for maybe three or four times, both as a pre echo and a post echo.
I installed limiters ahead of the tape recorders so the dynamic range was contained. After that the problem was greatly reduced even on cassettes.

Time and heat increases print through on existing recordings. Maybe magnetic fields too. I remember reading about a tape duplicating system which ran the original tape and the copy tape in intimate contact within an alternating magnetic field. I never saw it but at one stage I think it was touted as the duplication system of the future.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 7:34 pm   #27
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

I bought a lot of TDK CDing tapes in the late 1990s which normally played fine in a mains powered machine, but sometimes would go slow on a personal stereo at the middle of a side. This wasn't battery related as normally the sound would get back to normal by the end of the side, but I guess the tape was sticking slightly & the motor couldn't play at the right speed.

Tapes seemed to get better after being recorded on twice, but on some it seemed to come & go.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 8:18 am   #28
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Unlike some pro reel to reel machines to some degree all cassette tapes slow a little from start to finish of a side. It's because the original cassette never had provision for control of tape tension on both supply and take up reels. As the tape progresses, and the tape pack diameters change, the take up reel supplies progressively less tension and the supply reel progressively more. It means the capstan starts with an easy job but it gets more and more "uphill" as the tape progresses. Not a good situation.

Whereas even a late 1950's portable reel to reel Nagra III had servo control of tape tension on both reels. It wasnt perfect but was a whole lot better than nothing.

A standard test for cassette machines is the take up tension and the supply tension. There are test cassettes for this and specifications listed in the machine's Service Manual.

I'm sometimes given a cassette recording for "rescue" where the owner says "It slows down as it plays. Has the tape stretched? Can you fix it?" Often the tape is undamaged but they are playing it on a faulty machine and/or the tape itself is binding in the shell. Reshelling the tape and playing on a well maintained machine normally sorts it.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 1:16 pm   #29
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Chrome (or more accurately chromium dioxide) tapes NEVER damaged heads.

Let's nip this in the bud.

3M tried to smear BASF back in the 70s with a heavily biased presentation about BASF CrO2 video tapes damaging Ampex quadruplex heads. 3M refused to provide any real evidence, lab work or literature

BASF came back with their own tests with a multitude of laboratory data and evidence.

But the mud stuck and was extended by rumour to CrO2 audio cassettes, VHS cassettes and so on.

There never was any truth to it, as 3M later admitted. It was an attempt to smear BASF and gain business in the professional video tape market.

As for reel to reel, someone's already mentioned EE tape which was the equivalent of "type II" in cassette. For TDK and Maxell this meant cobalt-doped ferric oxide (as in XLII or SA cassettes, but a different formula). The idea was to get the same performance as 7.5ips out of 3.75ips recordings.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 2:49 am   #30
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Interesting, Gulliver. Was 3M ever prosecuted over this? Do you have any references to this which I could chase up?

Regards, Tim
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 11:51 am   #31
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Not quite what you are looking for, but perhaps this patent link may provide some inkling as to what do me manufacturers were up to? Note the links to various company patent applications at the bottom.

http://www.google.com.pg/patents/US3775178

I worked in videotape in the 70’s and have not (did not) hear that story. It always seemed to be about price. If the company bought a batch of tape and in practice it was found to be defective, them the manufacturer would usually replace the entire batch. It that didn’t work out the company generally went to another manufacturer. I don’t doubt Gulliver’s story though, it was a cut throat business with the salesman on commission.

Don’t recall we ever actually used BASF - can’t picture a reel with a logo on it. We used a lot of Scotch, Indeed I still have a Scotch reel with the foam protection on the inside of the reel’s surface, I have converted it into a clock and it sits very nicely on the wall of my study. Handsome or what!
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 12:55 pm   #32
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Interesting, Gulliver. Was 3M ever prosecuted over this? Do you have any references to this which I could chase up?
Try this. And bear in mind that Wilhelm worked for BASF for many years and is possibly the most knowledgeable person on magnetic tape.

http://www.tapeheads.net/showpost.ph...5&postcount=32
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 2:10 pm   #33
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Seems to me that Wilhelm is referring to the duplication recorder machines (vhs/betamax? ) rather than the heads on quad machines. No matter.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 6:02 pm   #34
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

I always thought video heads were ferrite so they had much better wear rates than say perm alloy.
That's is also very interesting about Scotch trying to besmirch chrome tapes by saying that they wear heads.................if it is true then it comes as no surprise, reminds me of claims that colour televisions damage your eyesight way back in the early 70s
Gary
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 1:37 pm   #35
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Default Re: Chrome Reel to Reel Tape?

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Hello I was wondering if any tape manufacturers ever produced a chrome tape for reel to reel use
I think BASF had an open reel tape that was called "chrome EE."
Maxell had an EE version too.

Also I think analog video tape (exception of metal) is chrome or chrome like.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 5:01 pm   #36
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Re #26, having dug out and played my BASF chrome cassette (for the first time in over 20 years!), it is indeed crosstalk that is the problem. While most of both sides is the radio play, there was some music at the end that can be heard in reverse at the start of the other side. Never had any crosstalk or print-through issues with any other tapes, despite most being C120s and some being nearly 50 years old.
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