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Old 8th Feb 2018, 5:51 pm   #1
1100 man
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Default HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Good afternoon,
This must be the polar opposite to 405 line TV's, and is an era of technology I know little about so is an interesting project!
From the research I've done, it would seem to be an earlier model without the automatic brake. It's a bit beaten up, but the object is to make it functional for a friend.
I was amazed when I tapped the soundbox or scraped the needle with my finger that a very loud sound was produced. It sounded for all the world like an electronic amplifier!
It's got a type 59 motor and I watched a couple of rather good videos on Utube from Grahamophones about stripping one down. I can see why people would have problems if they chopped a bit off the circlip to make it easier to fit. It relies on it's tightness for the ends to be touching rather than on it's spring tension.

It would perhaps have been better if I'd watched the video before stripping it down: I then would not have lost the ball bearing below the main spindle That is of course if it was there at all!

So for starters I need the tiny ball bearing plus the non return spring on the winder which is broken.
The main spring looks to be OK, but can someone tell me if the inner end looks OK or does it have a bit missing?
That grease sure does go solid but all the bits have cleaned up nicely. It looks a very well made motor.
Many thanks
Nick
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Old 8th Feb 2018, 6:10 pm   #2
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

I have balls of steel, in several sizes

If you can find out what diameter you need, I may have one. Then again, there are lots on ebay and you'll be OK next time you lose a couple lubricating some bearing on your pushbike.
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Old 8th Feb 2018, 6:47 pm   #3
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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I have balls of steel, in several sizes
Just another engineer, then!

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Old 8th Feb 2018, 8:00 pm   #4
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

The middle of the spring is correct and how it should be. It wraps itself around the spindle as you put it back together. I hope you remember which way is up and which down or the motor will run backwards if you get it wrong!

Are you sure the ball bearing has fallen out? It can get hidden amongst the hardened grease.
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Old 8th Feb 2018, 10:44 pm   #5
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info! I did do a quick sketch before I removed the spring as it didn't look obvious which way up it would go!
I did search my workbench & the floor for the ball bearing, also the grease laden rags I had used for the initial clean up. It may, of course, be at the bottom of the degreasing tank: I had a quick trawl with a magnet but only came up with oily swarf!!
With such sticky grease I find it hard to believe that it just fell out. Everything else was well stuck together.
Do you know the size of said ball bearing?
Many thanks
Nick
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Old 8th Feb 2018, 11:06 pm   #6
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Sorry Nick but without taking a machine apart I wouldn't know the size of the bearing. Barry will know if anyone does.

I almost got caught out the first time I took a 101 apart. It was only sheer luck that I saw the bearing and wondered where it came from. A dollop of grease should make sure it doesn't come out again.

How are the soundbox gaskets? When you get the machine running you will probably want to change these. New ones can make a terrific difference. You can also get a new handle - which it probably needs - on ebay while it's in bits.
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 12:15 am   #7
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Hi Dave,
I've not investigated the soundbox yet although I've been reading the many threads & links about these on the forum. There are not many threads where the name of 'Audio 1950' does not crop up so I assume Barry is the chap that knows a thing or two about these machines!
The handle, as in the knob on the end of the winder, is in pretty good condition and will live again.
Many thanks for your help,
Cheers
Nick
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 11:02 am   #8
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

I don't know the size of the ball bearing you need, but I have got one you're welcome to. Send me a PM with your name and address, and I'll get it into the post for you.

Barry
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 2:42 pm   #9
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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Originally Posted by 1100 man View Post
There are not many threads where the name of 'Audio 1950' does not crop up so I assume Barry is the chap that knows a thing or two about these machines!
Correct - Barry is the go-to guy for everything associated with wind-up Gramophones (and more!). He was a tremendous help to me with my own HMV 101 restoration and even cleaned and re-greased my spring for me.

I ended up replacing the pot metal Soundbox with a brass No.4 version bought on eBay.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=138654

Are you really sure the ball bearing is missing - it's very small and can get stuck with hardened grease.
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 12:24 am   #10
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Thank you for your kind offer, Barry. I'll send you a PM shortly. Donald, I've just read your very interesting thread on your 101 which seems to have been revived!

I've just had a closer look at the soundbox. I assume that it's a pot metal one as it's grey under the paint. Presumably, a brass one would be brass coloured unless they were plated before painting?

This machine doesn't have the automatic brake. It has a manually operated lever instead. Would that indicate an approximate age?
I did have a good look for the ball bearing as I imagined it would be stuck to some of the grease. I am used to dismantling mechanical things so I tend to notice things that fall out when items are stripped down. I did not notice anything when I took this apart so it may not have been there at all! Having said all that, I'm probably guilty!!

I must say that the build quality and finish are very good: it certainly gives the impression of being quite expensive rather than as cheap as they could make it.
All the best
Nick
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 11:14 am   #11
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

The early 101s were fitted with the 100 motor, the 59 motor wasn't fitted until 1928, so your machine has would have been made sometime between then and 1930, when the 59 motor was again replaced with an unmarked model, and the internal fittings changed from nickel to chromium.

I've found the ball bearing for you (PM sent), but do double check that the original isn't still sitting in it's socket. It's very hard to see, so I usually fill the socket with thinners or petrol, swill it around with a small paint brush, then tip it upside down on a cloth. Surprising how many times I've found it to still be there!

Barry
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 11:27 am   #12
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

That's really interesting! The bright Nickel finish on the internal parts is very pleasant: one could almost believe it was Silver plate
I will go and have an even closer look at the bottom plate to see if the ball bearing is still there!!
Many thanks
Nick
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 2:10 pm   #13
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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That's really interesting! The bright Nickel finish on the internal parts is very pleasant: one could almost believe it was Silver plate
For my money Nickel is a far better finish than chrome and much more durable.
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 1:32 pm   #14
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Hi,
I finally found time to put the motor back together. Many thanks to Barry (Audio1950) for sending me the missing ball and spring! Having cleaned up the mainspring, getting it back into it's case was easier than removing it. It all went smoothly and even getting the circlip back in was no problem.
The motor works surprisingly well and the speed regulation is very good. It seems very smooth in it's operation and easily plays a side with 15 - 20 turns of the winder.

I only had some used needles and a handful of records in dreadful condition to hand, but despite that, the sound was remarkably good. Very loud- even with a woolly hat stuffed into it!
This was not a restoration but just to make it functional, so I won't get involved with rebuilding the soundbox. I think it is adequate for it's intended purpose and I'm sure with some new needles and better records, will sound fine. It won't be used to play pristine records anyway.
I ended up listening to my small stock of records over the course of an hour and very entertaining it was. The concept must have been amazing in the 1930's!
I am so impressed, that I am now tempted to get a larger, more substantial player for myself!
Many thanks for everyone's helpful input.
All the best
Nick

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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 4:31 pm   #15
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

If I may stick my oar in?
I'm sure others will know, but don't try to take a pot metal sound box apart - they usually disintegrate. The brass ones are fine. I replaced the diaphragm and rubbers (off Ebay - where else?) in mine and they transformed the sound from pretty good to excellent. Replacing these items improves the compliance of the sound box, meaning the needle is easier to move by the record groove. This means the diaphragm will travel further, thus making more sound and with better lower frequencies, and it won't wear the record so much. It goes without saying that you should only use a new needle once for each record.
I heard (somewhere) that an HMV 101 could be used for a dance in a village hall - with a good sound box and a loud needle, they're not joking!
I recently used my Calcutta-made 101 (which a man who knows told me is a hybrid, but he didn't say why) to play an HMV 12" recording of Caruso to a seated audience in a hotel ballroom, using a medium tone needle, and they all heard it perfectly.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 7:33 pm   #16
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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Originally Posted by dalgwcobl View Post
I recently used my Calcutta-made 101 (which a man who knows told me is a hybrid, but he didn't say why)
If your 101 is the teak version i.e. not covered in leathercloth, then it's not exactly a hybrid, but what's known as a Colonial model. The cases were made in India, and the other parts exported from the Hayes factory. Rarely seen in the UK, the few that have surfaced have probably been brought back by ex-military or government staff.

Barry

PS. My regards to Royston, my birthplace!
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 11:29 pm   #17
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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If I may stick my oar in?
I'm sure others will know, but don't try to take a pot metal sound box apart - they usually disintegrate. The brass ones are fine. I replaced the diaphragm and rubbers (off Ebay - where else?) in mine and they transformed the sound from pretty good to excellent. Replacing these items improves the compliance of the sound box, meaning the needle is easier to move by the record groove.
Thank you for the advice! Having looked carefully at my soundbox, I concluded that it was a pot metal one being grey under the paint. Having read much about these, that was another reason to not try and dismantle it. I realise it would improve the audio quality and inflict less wear on the records though.
I still find the concept of amplifying sound to this level without electronics quite amazing. Presumably, players with large horns would fill a good size hall?
All the best
Nick
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 11:16 am   #18
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Horns don't actually amplify anything (give more power out than in). What they are is acoustic impedance matching devices- audio transformers if you like.

They match the high impedance soundbox (small movements but considerable forces available) to the low impedance air (bigger movement, lower forces).

Half a watt of audio at the soundbox, well matched to the air would sound plenty loud. Equivalent to at least 5 watts into a cone speaker. What the actual audio power from the record is, I don't know.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 11:38 am   #19
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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Horns don't actually amplify anything (give more power out than in). What they are is acoustic impedance matching devices- audio transformers if you like.

They match the high impedance soundbox (small movements but considerable forces available) to the low impedance air (bigger movement, lower forces).
Ah! I started thinking after I'd posted the above, about where the power came from to amplify the sound. I had never thought of it in terms of impedance. I'd never considered that mechanical things had such properties!!
That's interesting!
Thanks for that,
Nick
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 2:56 pm   #20
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Here's my 101 - a little battered, but still working perfectly at 90 years old. What's the betting on a CD player still working at 90 years old?
It's a fabric-covered case, so not sure how else to determine its 'hybridness'.
I replace the carrying handle last year as the original came away as I tried to pick it up. The leather had just crumbled. it's probably a good idea to replace an original handle to avoid a nasty accident.
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