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Old 24th Jun 2018, 5:03 pm   #1
Panrock
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Default 1938 Television Reception in US

From another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Then there is this.
https://archive.org/details/BbcTelev...InNewYork-1938

To say I am sceptical about this being genuine would be an understatement.
Andrew Emmerson and Simon Vaughan are both respected in the field and I believe this is 'legit'. F2 Layer reception under freak conditions. However, from looking at the Tuning Signal at the end, this may indicate the pictures are mirror-image.

I once heard an associated sound recording too, with mains hum faded up under Jasmine Bligh's mic !

Since someone on that thread seems to have identified the actual cartoon, it might be possible to pin down the actual date and time of transmission from old Radio Times Television Supplements.

Steve
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 11:26 pm   #2
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

I must confess that I only became aware of this footage about two years ago.
It is a remarkable piece of film despite any doubts I may have, and I contend that both skepticism and Devil's Advocacy are useful standpoints in a rational debate.

My doubts concern details of the telerecording, and not whether a 45Mhz signal of several kW could be received in NY.


I wonder why we only have a silent digitised VHS copy to view, a film of this historical significance should be digitised directly by frame-by frame HD scanning.

Also there was sound, so how was that preserved, SEPMAG COMOPT, or something else.

With something this unique I would also like to see a scan of a few frames of the 16mm film, showing the edge-markings etc.
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 12:15 am   #3
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

The channel B1 signal has also been received in South Africa and Australia as well.
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 12:48 am   #4
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

I had a vague recollection of a reported reception of UK 405 line vhf TV in Antarctica, but drew a blank on internet searching. What I did find was reference to reception of BBC TV in Australia, which was apparently recorded on film and audio tape . The web site was
home.iprimus.com.au/Toddemslie/George_Palmer_TVDX.html
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 7:08 am   #5
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

On the discussion thread at https://archive.org/details/BbcTelev...InNewYork-1938 , DG Mavrov identifies the cartoon clip as "the Silly Symphony "Mother Goose Melodies" from 1931".

Looking at the Radio Times Television Supplements at http://www.bbc.co.uk/historyofthebbc...-times/pre-war
we see that this film was indeed broadcast, but not in November - instead in early December 1938. On December 6th, at 9.20pm, is listed Cartoon Film : "Mother Goose Melodies". This would have been 4.20pm in New York. Maybe the RCA film was assembled as a compilation of reception over several days... the cartoon does come near the end.

I was unable to find weather maps online from the period, possibly showing anticyclonic conditions over the Atlantic.

I seem to remember someone once successfully identified the Tuning Signal seen at the very end, too. Can anybody here identify it?

Steve
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 8:22 am   #6
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Some elements of it look genuine, the multiple path images with horizontal delays and the fading of signal amplitude with loss of sync. There is one thing about it though that looks a bit unconvincing to me. At the time, American studio TV crt monitors all had round CRT's with rectangular masks or a mask on top and bottom leaving the sides rounded, but I have never seen one in any of my books that has such a sharp radius of curvature near the corners, it almost looks like a 1960's vintage rectangular CRT. Still, it pays to be skeptical, but if I was betting money on it, its probably genuine.
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 8:24 am   #7
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

I assume the 16mm camera did not have sound recording, so probably just 16mm silent film.
If the sound was recorded on another medium the recording may be lost.
It is good to see the images from way back then. Maybe the next time the BBC has a television anniversary they could show them.
Even better if Alexandra Palace ever gets back on the air as a heritage station it could be transmitted once again from there in 405 lines.

John
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 9:15 am   #8
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

I think I've seen a report in Television & Short Wave World or in WW including a still image. There is also an article in RCA Review on transatlantic tests.

The paragraph below is from July 1937.

Also: https://www.americanradiohistory.com...1937-09-UK.pdf

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Old 25th Jun 2018, 9:16 am   #9
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

A likely set for the viewing would have been the RCA TRK-12. You can examine the mask shape at http://www.myvintagetv.com/rca_trk12.htm

I attach the best view I can glean of the 'Tuning Signal'.

Steve
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 9:42 am   #10
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Before the war, Telefunken manufactured a magnetically deflected fully rectangular tubed television E1 which was 441 lines. See - bs.cyty.com/menschen/e.../TV/telefunken/einheitsempfaenger.htm

Philips, using a electrostatically deflected tube, presented to the viewer a rectangular framed picture as did Ferranti, for 405 line reception. See attached.

Chris
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 1:37 pm   #11
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_picks_up_bbc.html

This is the type of set used to display the image.
http://www.earlytelevision.org/images/rca_rr359-hd.jpg
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 1:55 pm   #12
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_scott View Post

This is the type of set used to display the image.
http://www.earlytelevision.org/images/rca_rr359-hd.jpg
with more details here:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_rr-359.html

We learn elsewhere that an 'horizontal rhombic antenna' was used, over 500ft long.

Steve
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 2:15 pm   #13
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Here's the rear view.

Peter
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 9:25 pm   #14
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Page 224.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com...1939-04-UK.pdf
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 9:23 am   #15
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

During the sunspot maximum of 1957 BBC TV was seen quite a few times in North America, South Africa and Australia via the F2 layer. Also during this period UK viewers who received BBC TV on ch B1 would often hear American Taxis breaking though on the sound.
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 9:44 am   #16
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panrock View Post
From another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Then there is this.
https://archive.org/details/BbcTelev...InNewYork-1938

To say I am sceptical about this being genuine would be an understatement.
Andrew Emmerson and Simon Vaughan are both respected in the field and I believe this is 'legit'. F2 Layer reception under freak conditions. However, from looking at the Tuning Signal at the end, this may indicate the pictures are mirror-image.

I once heard an associated sound recording too, with mains hum faded up under Jasmine Bligh's mic !

Since someone on that thread seems to have identified the actual cartoon, it might be possible to pin down the actual date and time of transmission from old Radio Times Television Supplements.

Steve
Seems to have the right 'flicker' associated with an unlocked cine camera filming a 60 hz screen.
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 9:49 am   #17
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

I presume you mean a '50 Hz screen' or perhaps I've missed something?

Steve
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 10:06 am   #18
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

This is likely the only recording of pre-war TV known. I don't think any of the British examples actually include the television process. The Coronation certainly didn't, it was simply a parallel film.
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 12:45 pm   #19
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Well, pre-war British television anyway. There is lots of German IF stuff. I know it's not off the screen but it is as broadcast, or would be if we displayed it with 180 line scanning. Perhaps one of the pre-war German set owners could do this and stick it on YouTube.

I might have go myself but that would only be on my HMV. I don't think we can capture the non-interlaced 25Hz scanning flicker on YouTube though.

Peter

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Old 26th Jun 2018, 2:04 pm   #20
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Default Re: 1938 Television Reception in US

Again, the actual television process is absent in the recording.
The 1932/33 recordings on domestic disc are probably the only other pre-war television recordings, unless the Yanks filmed anything.
Are we absolutely certain the Transcription Service didn't take any of the Medium Wave TV output?
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