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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 9:05 pm   #1
hillmanie
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Default Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Health warning! Very long post - first - with a hint of OT depending on your viewpoint.

Found this forum by accident. Was delighted to find such a wealth of knowledge regarding those old reel-to-reel machines. One person in particular stands out as the real deal on knowledge. Although some of the postings are old I'm hoping that folks are still around who can help me with some reel to reel info. Reading through I think some of my queries have already been answered but if I revisit, please forgive!

Some will ask, why bother with those old relics when modern stuff like MP3 etc. is so much better quaiity? Why settle for 0.1 wow and flutter when you have 0.0 dirt cheap CD et al. No logical reason I'm afraid - just nostalgia for the time we were young and reel to reel was THE amateur recording medium. Also there is something fascinating about those whirling reels producing sound from nothing more than a string of plastic tape though this also applied to the hand wound 78's of my childhood when domestic re-recordable medium was just science fiction. When r to r first emerged I thought it was just miraculous that one could simply record and re-record one's voice and play it back at excellent quality. Even more astonishing was the ability to pipe in sound electronically from a radio or record deck/player. For a very long time I ogled them in shop windows but alas my pocket wouldn't allow any more. Later when working I found exactly what I wanted in a Hounslow High St chain shop which invited HP at five bob a week. I was in. It was and IS, a Civic branded recorder with the Collaro deck as mentioned in these pages and was my most treasured possession for more years than I care to admit. It had a standalone amp cable connection facility supplied which was great as I could only afford a s/h record deck not full player for a long time. The zenith of pleasure was reached when I went to work on one of my many pennyworth jumble sale buys, a non working small radio for a couple of shillings. It needed a new speaker transformer which cost somewhat more than the radio but introduced me to a whole new world of recording after I discovered I could pick off a pure AF signal at the volume control of the radio. Every week for years I recorded my favourite BBC musical programme. (Still have some).

If you haven't yet dozed off I'll explain why I'm posting and positioning for repair advice. For aeons the reel to reel bug lay dormant but recently hit me like a rash that had to be scratched. The urge to succeed, to achieve satisfaction is present in all of our human condition and lately I just 'had to fix something' while still on the planet. Reel to reel immediately sprang to mind and when I found a slew of 'fixer-uppers' on eBay ranging from £2.67 to £25 I was hooked. Over five weeks the current count is five though slowing down. I don't apologise for this madness and only say that it exists in one form or another in each one of us. 'One man's meat...........etc'

Progress:-

Tests to date has been of the 'petrol in the tank?' type -

Recorder 1.
Broken secondary on the mains transformer repaired

Recorder 2.
Motor seized through dried up shaft in bearing. Currently coaxing thin oil into it, it's hard to access.

Recorder 3.
Broken wire at 6.3 microphone plug. Awaiting new plug as existing is a bit mankey. Also will play pre-recorded tape at too low volume. Recording function activates Magic Eye but nothing gets recorded on blank tape, though the erase part works. Has been set aside while while playing with Recorders 3, 4 and 5.

Recorder 4.
All mechanicals work normally but electronics 'dead'. No sound from (tested speaker) when board probed, volume control scratched etc. This one exposes the need for signal tracing which is just at the limits of my ability. For signal generation I thought commercial but because a shoestring pennypinching approach over-rides everything I opted for a pocket radio from The £ Shop and cut off the earplugs so as to inject a sound, any AF even a hiss.

So as not to outstay my welcome too much I am holding back on the help-me questions inevitably arising, such as matching impedances on the cheap et al.

Thanks for reading, Tony T.
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 11:09 pm   #2
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Fear not, Tony - you are among friends here...
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 4:22 pm   #3
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Hi Tony,

Great to hear about another Civic tape recorder with Collaro deck, I'm nearly finished restoring mine. If you have any information about the background of these that would be great as I'm trying to figure out which company made it and hoping to track down schematics. I have also recently bought a few other reel to reel machines with the hope of restoring them but I am new to this as well.

Regards,

Gary
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 6:21 pm   #4
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I think there may have been a company of the same name that manufactured them. Ours was not the first Collaro/Civic deck as I vaguely think the earlier model was fitted eg in the Cossor brand tape recorder. I've also heard the Magnavox name mentioned in connection with this deck. A manufacturer maybe?

I found some info on the deck - a PDF file which you're welcome to if I can attach it to a Private Message (so as not to clog up the airwaves)
At a guess I'd say there's more on the deck with a lot of searching

Re collecting old reorders You'll find frequent non-workers on eBay under £20, eg in my case £13, £9, £2.67 etc. I've tried to buy several of the same model with possibly different faults in hope of improving my education by comparison and perhaps cannibalising A for B to make one good one
TT
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 6:49 pm   #5
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You can't attach anything to a PM, they're for sensitive information. You can attach to a post though, the information may be useful to a wider audience.
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 9:59 pm   #6
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Thanks Bill - yes I discovered that in the rules but only after I'd made the offer. Usual mouth before brain example. I'll investigate general posting. Meanwhile my email address is welcome to anyone interested
Tony
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 11:07 am   #7
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillmanie View Post
I think there may have been a company of the same name that manufactured them. Ours was not the first Collaro/Civic deck as I vaguely think the earlier model was fitted eg in the Cossor brand tape recorder. I've also heard the Magnavox name mentioned in connection with this deck. A manufacturer maybe?
You will not find any Collaro made tape deck in a Cossor tape recorder. They use Philips mechanisms.
It's possible that the Collaro/Civic recorder was made by the same company that owned Perdio. They made Civic and EAR branded portable record players from c.1962 onwards.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 1:14 pm   #8
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Back in the day the BSR TD2 was the entry-level deck and often tuns up in Civic machines. Posh ones like yours used the Collaro three-speed three motor piano-key unit. You could buy either deck on its own to make your own machine, and many firms did just that, with electronics cobbled together from data sheets. You'd also find the BSR and Collaro decks in more respected makes such as Elizabethan.
Magnavox were another manufacturer whose decks turned up in Truvox machines. The R44 cheapo used a fairly poor deck, but the three-speed R92 and so on gave a good, if slightly noisy, account of itself.
Thorn used their own decks, as did Philips, also appearing under the Pye, Stella and Cossor brands.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 2:32 pm   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Huggins View Post
You will not find any Collaro made tape deck in a Cossor tape recorder. They use Philips mechanisms.
It's possible that the Collaro/Civic recorder was made by the same company that owned Perdio. They made Civic and EAR branded portable record players from c.1962 onwards.
Fair enough. Never saw a Cossor recorder in the flesh though I believe I've seen a coffin-sized radio from the '30s. From Cossor pics I thought the deck looked Collaro but no, you're quite right. Another post here mentions that the 3-motor deck was more expensive and found in the higher priced recorders. This also is true but Civic managed to cut down the price to not too much more than the cheapest Joystick models, else I could not have afforded it then. If weak memory serves I think mine was £25 with the cheapest being about £18. A lot in % terms but reachable. I've always had a strong preference for the piano key decks
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 5:14 pm   #10
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Many store and own brand machines (Civic, RETRA, Defiant and so on) were manufactured by Sound (Tape Recorders) Ltd, who also issued machines under their own brand. They made a push for US sales about 1963/64 and quietly disappeared not long afterwards...
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 11:26 am   #11
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Service info on the Studio deck can be found following the link at the top-right of these pages. It helps keep the Forum going!
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 1:22 pm   #12
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
You'd also find the BSR and Collaro decks in more respected makes such as Elizabethan.
Magnavox were another manufacturer whose decks turned up in Truvox machines. The R44 cheapo used a fairly poor deck, but the three-speed R92 and so on gave a good, if slightly noisy, account of itself.
Magnavox *was* Collaro, they bought them around 1960. Presumably most turntable production was then sent to the parent in the States and they seem to have abandoned the British turntable OEM market. They appear to have stayed active longer in OEM tape decks, but the 363 as fitted to the Truvox R44, Wyndsor Vanguard etc was their last design and followed on from the studio.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 6:28 pm   #13
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Health warning - another long and tedious post
----------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for repair info I believe that all that is necessary to know can be found in these postings it being just a matter of time to browse as many as possible, which I am doing. However, it is not unlikely that I'll miss something and raise a new query already answered. Bear with me!
Current area of interest is reel to reel microphones and impedance. Of the half dozen I've bought some have no mikes. Correct me where I'm wrong but I believe that in the old valve days all valve based recorders had a high impedance front end, as in the case of my original Studio which came with a crystal mike which I assumed all did. Later when I acquired a transistor based portable C60 cassette recorder I noticed the mike was low impedance, 400-800 or less. I thought then that all transistor front ends were low impedance being a solid based semiconductor rather than one of vacuum, eg valve? As the over-riding consideration of my projects is cheapjack pennypinching I noticed that high impedance mikes even s/h commanded prices a multiple of the low impedance examples, a bunch of which I have from the Far East starting at 99p. Now there's the matter of matching one of these into a high imp valve pre-amp. Is this really necessary?
And how about my beauties that are transistorised? In this link https://www.prosoundtraining.com/201...ance-matching/
the guy argues that impedance matching is not necessary (now I'm confused)
I assume that a microphone matching transformer if used has a fixed matching ratio and that one has to be chosen to specifically suit the particular mike and recorder. However, a Youtube bloke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1yPMDHiRucshows shows a circuit that's supposed to match a range of impedances. Is this kosher? If so it would suit my purpose of not having to buy more mikes up front
Brings me to my first recent £10 buy called a Concord. Apparently a US import as it's 117v a feature the seller forgot to mention in the ad. No worries - I have a nice small step down trfr. This Concord is quite clean and un-meddled with and I've now got it out of the case. It's transistorised and the board is so compact that it will be hard to access it for testing. A visual shows all components free of distortion of any kind.
The symptoms:
All mechanicals working fine. Playing a pre recorded tape gives very low volume. On microphone record the Magic Eye does flutter slightly and that section of tape does get erased but I can't hear anything on playback. Thought the oscillator is working OK and the pre-amp gone weak. Incidentally its microphone may be crystal as it's marked 20k impedance. Probably the right one as is labelled Concord. I temporarily patched up the 6.3 connection/plug but is still flaky. I then plugged in a 3.5 mike of 99p with adaptor - low impedance but no result. Hence my questions re impedance matching if necessary.
All inputs appreciated
TT
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 9:47 am   #14
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What the seller of your "Concord" may not have told you is that the mains frequency is also different in the US and your step-down transformer will not addres that issue. This will mean that your record/playback speed will be affected and will differ from a European made machine.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 7:14 pm   #15
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THanks for the reminder. I forgot to mention that in my posting. A 60hz machine playing a pre-recorded tape done at 50hz won't sound the best. A bit like the old hand wound gramophones where you could adjust the playing speed widely! Should it be OK for tapes newly recorded on itself? I once bought a nice US cassette recorder and wonder of wonders the manufacturer supplied a 50hz pulley free of charge but with a strict injunction that I should 'work through the retailer' (a junk shop) in future. Worse case I can break the thing and re-use the cabinet which is quite nice and possibly the electronics. If I can solve the amplification problem it will have served its purpose and I can move onto the next challenge. In this regard one other of my prize buys came with its plastic base in smithereens but otherwise undamaged. In fact the only thing wrong was a seized motor, now freed and working OK. Apparently the seller hadn't looked closely enough.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 9:34 pm   #16
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Good to know. Am sure I'll be in receipt of the occasional correction though, ie mouth/pen before brain occasions
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 3:29 pm   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Huggins View Post
What the seller of your "Concord" may not have told you is that the mains frequency is also different in the US and your step-down transformer will not addres that issue. This will mean that your record/playback speed will be affected and will differ from a European made machine.
Giving the benefit of the doubt I don't think he deliberately misled me.
Re the 60hz motor in the Concord(e)! (is it really that fast) I have no intention of trying any conversion as the cost would exceed the value of the machine. However I have a purely theoretical question something like this -
Is the machine running at 5/6th of its correct speed (50 Vs 60) or are there other things involved? If so and if one were to have a pulley cut on a lathe diameter 1/5th bigger than the US one would that correct the speed? Apart from that most junk collectors don't carry a lathe round in the hip pocket it would probably be easier to replace the mains trfmr, none of which will happen. I'll live with blank test tape recording to see if I can fix the amp or whatever problem and then retire the thing.
If these kind of questions are deemed boring OT I'm happy to desist
Cheers
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 4:47 pm   #18
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Replacing the mains transformer will not affect the frequency of the AC applied to the motor, so it will not affect the motor speed.

In general 50Hz to 60Hz conversions were done by replacing the pulley with one of a different size, assuming the motor could reliably run on the other frequency (Some 60Hz motors will overheat on 50Hz supplies). The service manuals for some of my Philips tape recorder tell you to change the tappings that the motor is connected to (to change the voltage, I guess to prevent overheating) and then replace the pulley. The service manuals for some 8" floppy disk drives and 14" minicomputer hard disk drives (agaain, mains-powered synchronous motor) just tell to replace the pulley and belt (as the motor pulley is a different diameter, the belt is a different length to fit tightly round the motor and spindle pulleys), no electrical changes.

And while a lathe is certainly not portable, and not the sort of thing a to go in a hip pocket, a fair number of vintage radio, etc enthusiasts own one. Another possibility is to talk to a freindly model engineer (the sort of person who makes steam engines). They might be happy to turn you a pulley in exchange for some electrical/electronic wok.
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 9:11 pm   #19
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Quote:
And while a lathe is certainly not portable, and not the sort of thing a to go in a hip pocket, a fair number of vintage radio, etc enthusiasts own one. Another possibility is to talk to a freindly model engineer (the sort of person who makes steam engines). They might be happy to turn you a pulley in exchange for some electrical/electronic wok.
Terrific. All the answers in one reply, thanks! As this was just a thought and is no way a priority it goes on the back burner. Several of the remaining five buys have challenges that are more promising to restore life. However, the hobbyist possibility is one I hadn't thought of. I see that the Concord is a 3-speed with a stepped motor pulley and jockey wheel thing
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Old 28th Jul 2019, 12:53 pm   #20
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Default Re: Newbie here - Reel to reel overhaul and refurbishment

Turning a pulley is quite simple (depending on the complexity of the shape, of course!) It's always worth looking at the local hobbyist angle, as there's such a wealth of knowledge, tools and experience around, usually ready to do the kind of task the industrial estate will throw their hands up at, just because it's an interesting challenge.

My brother had a nice time knocking up some BA knurled thumb nuts for me in a spare half hour the other day as he's inherited grandfather's lathe.
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