UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > Components and Circuits

Notices

Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12th May 2011, 9:25 pm   #1
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

I got some of these 1j18b (aka 1zh18b, 1sh18b really 1Ж18Б ) valves and thinking of getting some different ones.

I built Andre Adrian's (DL1ADR) little demo Hartley Oscillator just on push in breadboard (the sort for ICs and transistors). I didn't have 45V HT, but found it works from about 23V. Connecting the R1 39K grid1 resistor to f+ instead of f- lets it work down to about 16V (1.5V RMS 5.4MHz).

Anyone here expert on these type valves?

I can find easily
1Ж17Б aka 1j17b
1Ж24Б 1j24b
1Ж29Б 1j29b
1Ж37Б 1j37b (seems to be good mixer)
Also two folks on eBay with 1P24B

I'm interested in making a GDO, a valve voltmeter and maybe a shortwave radio*. A friend is interested in a headphone amplifier.

Is the 1P24B useful at say 200mW Audio or HF PA at a 30V? It seems to be rated 4W @ 150V (seems mad amount for pencil valve).

All appear to be 1.2V rather than 1.5V heater.

Any value in running off 1.1V to prolong life? (800mV reported to "work")

This here explains it a lot http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/rus...ure_tubes.html

Other interesting links
http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Lese...o/FM-Radio.htm
http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Wett...hoefer-Amp.htm
http://www.andreadrian.de/sdr/#mozTocId636563
http://www.klausmobile.narod.ru/td/indexe.htm
http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/ux-45/russian.html

I think for portable GDO and Valve voltmeter (a differential pair at input) I would use a 4 AH NiMH C cell with inverter to get 36V from the 1.25V battery. A worry is that the NiMH is more than NiCd (about 1.26V even when fresh). Should I series regulate the NiMH with a pnp transistor?

has anyone an idea of lifetime vs heater volts?

(* I have FT101ZD mkIII, Racal syncal30, FT817ND, Sony ICF2001D and Yaesu VR500 radios, so some may ask why build one out of miniature valves, but the thought of portable battery valve SSB/AM all band HF radio with these is some how beguiling me, maybe 5MHz VFO plus crystals for bands, I'm not going to make a DDS or PLL synth from valves ).

Last edited by neon indicator; 12th May 2011 at 9:31 pm.
neon indicator is offline  
Old 12th May 2011, 9:53 pm   #2
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

The 1P24b datasheet in english http://home.comcast.net/~jlrmsousa/1...a_sheet_en.pdf

The 1ZH17B (1j17b) seems to be about 1/2 heater power of 1j18b I bought. Maybe low power RF preamp/IF amp and 1j18b more general purpose?

1j24b only 17mW heater? Really? The 1j18b is really 24mA (I measured it). So 1j24b an even lower power pentode for IF amp?

Not sure what 1j29b is for.

Certainly a 1Ж37Б 1j37b should be next purchase out of interest. Could I use it in a GDO like the "modern" dual gate Mosfet and use one grid to control sensitivity? Though its more power hungry than the 1j18b.

Has anyone tried the 150V 1P24B at 18V to 36V?
neon indicator is offline  
Old 12th May 2011, 10:42 pm   #3
davegsm82
Heptode
 
davegsm82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blyth, Northumberland, UK.
Posts: 858
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Any chance of some pictures of the valves?

I know nothing about them but would be interested to see them.

Dave.
davegsm82 is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 8:27 am   #4
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Pics on the links above esp this one http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/rus...ure_tubes.html

I'll take a photo later of my typical IC breadboard. OK, it's a glass tube and technically a valve, but seems kind of strange you can't see a heater glow, it doesn't get hot and just has wire ends like transistor. They used them in Portable Military radios and MIG fighters from 1960s to 1980s. In the beginning I guess because better than a 1960s Germanium transistor (up to 120MHz, stable and high impedance). I do remember even in 1970s Russian domestic gear was using Germanium, not Silicon Transistors, so that's the explanation they using these 20 years after the West stopped using valves in portable gear.
neon indicator is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 9:20 am   #5
Ed_Dinning
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
Posts: 8,172
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Hi, Sounds like some interesting projects with these valves.
A caution on using an HT inverter with the GDO, as you will find it picks up all the inverter harmonics.
Series regulation of the heater circuit with a series pass will have to much volt drop, a low value resistor and ohms law will work fine here.

Ed
Ed_Dinning is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 9:59 am   #6
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

NiMH varies from 0.9V (near flat) to over 1.25 fully charged.
a series PNP will work
neon indicator is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 11:15 am   #7
Ed_Dinning
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
Posts: 8,172
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Yes, but the forward loss (minimum) of Si is 0.7V, Ge 0.3v (approx), you would need more than 1 cell to overcome this and still give the required fil volts.
A buck/boost converter (Nat Semi) could also work, but would have undesirable switching noise.


Ed
Ed_Dinning is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 11:47 am   #8
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

No, the loss is max about 100mV, possibly less. It's VCE saturation volts if PNP in series with f+ or NPN in series f-
A FET is even less (RDSon), but I don't know any with usable gate voltage ranges for 0.9V to 1.3V supply)

PNP emitter to battery
PNP collector to f+
base current to ground with resistor divider to low voltage approx 0.7 from Vbatt+

Transistor is almost in constant current mode. Since the filament is fixed load at any particular temperature, if the Ic is adjusted for 1V filament, when battery is 1.3V then as battery volts drops to 1.1 the PNP transistor saturates.

However battery "operational" range is about 0.9V to 1.27V for most NiMH AA or C cells, so you do lose some battery time. I will experiment tonight with PNP transistor and a range of 0.3V to 0.7V diodes and a pot to fine tune and see if there is any value.

vs 24ma @ 0.3V drop is approximately a 12 Ohm series resistor.

Any switcher needs very very well filtered. There is a certain attractiveness to just a NiMH cell for filament with 12 Ohms (or 6.8 Ohms 2 off valves) and 2 or 3 PP3s for HT.

Here is a nice photo http://www.techtir.ie/blogs/watty/miniature_valves_1

Last edited by neon indicator; 13th May 2011 at 12:07 pm.
neon indicator is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 12:22 pm   #9
davegsm82
Heptode
 
davegsm82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blyth, Northumberland, UK.
Posts: 858
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

There are some logic level switching FET's available, even something like the humble 2N7000 may be suitable here as i've used them in LV battery stuff in the past.

You're not drawing much current at all, 1v on the gate may well be enough to turn on the FET more than it will in a transistor, if you know what I mean.

How's about putting one of those tiny 20mA lamps in series with the heater?

Dave.
davegsm82 is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 12:39 pm   #10
John M0GLN
Octode
 
John M0GLN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Southport, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 1,156
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

There's a interesting VFO circuit here,

http://g4oep.atspace.com/xfy/xfy.htm

using a similar ( miniature, wired ended, low voltage ) valve.

John
John M0GLN is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 1:46 pm   #11
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

site times out

Not just me
http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.c...p.atspace.com/
neon indicator is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 3:16 pm   #12
John M0GLN
Octode
 
John M0GLN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Southport, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 1,156
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Its up now, I've just got it from the link you posted,

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.c...p.atspace.com/

the VFO is under Frequency Sources as XFY 43 VFO, alternatively if you Google 'XFY 43' its the first hit.

John
John M0GLN is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 3:22 pm   #13
John M0GLN
Octode
 
John M0GLN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Southport, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 1,156
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

I've just tried it again and its down, however when I first saw it I copied and pasted the article into OpenOffice, if you want a copy PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.

John
John M0GLN is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 4:20 pm   #14
Meat Pye
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, UK.
Posts: 103
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

I remember a Mig fighter defecting in the 1980's. It was the latest model and the West was very keen to inspect the latest in Soviet technology. Imagine their surprise when they looked inside the radar set and found valves! How they laughed at the stone age Russians; what a load of Flintstones! Then someone who knew what he was talking about pointed out that in the event of a nuclear war, the EMP's from nuclear explosions would zap any semiconductor. Only valved equipment would survive, being totally impervious to EMP's and static. You dismiss Russian Technology at your peril - just ask anyone with a Russian radio like the VEF's and Spidolas.
Meat Pye is offline  
Old 13th May 2011, 4:24 pm   #15
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Thanks, but it's back so I have saved it.
Interesting site. maybe I should wget it in case he's got long term hosting issue.
neon indicator is offline  
Old 14th May 2011, 6:38 pm   #16
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Well experimenting I find:

The Hartley Osc I can only get to go up to about 7.5MHz. But at 16V HT it's only taking 150uA HT

If I use common anode type osc (Colpitts, Clapp?) with a pair of "resistor" style 22uH coils to isolate filaments from LT supply and
10pF g1 to f+ and 22pF from f+ to ground.
39k from g1 to f+

I can put 20MHz crystal g1 to ground and it works down to 22V HT
with adjustable coil instead of crystal I get up to 80MHz, but need 44V HT (my maximum available).

After "all day" my NiMH AA cell is still reading 1.35V! I found that 10 Ohm series resistor gives 1.1V on filament.

All just tested on an IC type breadboard, so likely over 120MHz or 150MHz oscillator with +45V approx HT and PCB or even veroboard/stripboard with copper ground plane glued on (I've made up to a 3GHz osc and 2GHz amp on stripboard using SM components and tracks on top with copper foil on "bottom").

Very interesting
neon indicator is offline  
Old 14th May 2011, 8:03 pm   #17
murphyv310
Dekatron
 
murphyv310's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK.
Posts: 5,420
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

What about the millions the US spent on developing a pen to work in no gravity, the Russians used a pencil!

Seriously though, where can you get these little Russian valves, I really would like to experiment with them.
__________________
Cheers,
Trevor.
MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member
murphyv310 is offline  
Old 16th May 2011, 11:05 am   #18
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

Operating wired as Pentode an Oscillator up to 40MHz or 50MHz is possible at under 32V HT.

But earthing the Anode and using g2 as Anode it works up to over 90MHz on breadboard (about 40V HT).
I'd not do this with an ordinary valve, but since the "grids" on the 1jNNb series are actually really pins or rods, why not? Only 760uA HT current anyway.

I'd imagine an EL34, ECL86 etc would object to the current if you used G2 as an Anode and true "triode" mode rather than "fake" Triode mode seen on some current PA schematics of Pentodes?

Actually the US (NASA or Government) didn't spend any money developing a pen. Both Russians and US used pencils (with risk of broken lead). An independent company developed the pen and offered it to both Governments quite cheaply. But it's a nice story

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

Anyway I'm having difficulty getting a good tuning range for a GDO. The oscillators I have built have only about 65MHz to 85MHz swing (100pF to 22pF, not much lower frequency at 10nF and maybe 90MHz at 10pF), though coil/output is nicely sensitive (lovely dip) if I bring my existing Dip Meter in Wavemeter mode (i.e. Osc off) and tune to same freq.

Maybe I need to build on stripboard instead of high capacitance breadboard?
maybe I need to do a 2MHz version and see what frequency shift it has?

Any thoughts?
neon indicator is offline  
Old 16th May 2011, 12:24 pm   #19
davegsm82
Heptode
 
davegsm82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blyth, Northumberland, UK.
Posts: 858
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

If you bought a 'some' of these things, would you entertain selling a couple on? I'd like 1 or 2 just to have a play with

Thanks, Dave.
davegsm82 is offline  
Old 16th May 2011, 1:45 pm   #20
neon indicator
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: Russian Military Subminature "pencil" valves

The postage and getting 10 from Ukraine or Russia to you is just less than £10.

The postage for me to wrap and send you 2 for free is about 1/5th of that at Irish rates, and probably as long to get them (it was less than a week).

If you're really desperately poor I suppose I can send you one. But I'm currently quite poor.

typing 1j18b into eBay or Google reveals lots of sellers. murphyv310 ordered some and I suspect he will get them end of this week or early next.

Next I will get 1j37b dual g1 Pentode mixer (not a hexode!) and maybe 1p24b 4W.

At the minute I can only find 50 off deals on the 4W RF P.A. So maybe we might order those and split 3, 4 or 5 ways. However I'm not in a rush.
neon indicator is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:39 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.