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Old 22nd Apr 2009, 10:44 pm   #1
howard
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Default 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Hello again,

I nearly bought one of these back in 1985, but plumped for an older Marantz CD-73 which in retrospect turned out to be a good decision as the Marantz is now considered a classic first generation machine. However, the CD104s are very good well built CD players and share much of the circuitry and the CDM1 CD transport with the first generation Philips machines, and have better ergonomics with random access to tracks and a digital display, but at the moment are not so sought after and typically fetch £30-£40 on ebay in working condition . The only thing that hi-fi buffs at the time had reservations about was the CD104's fixed output phono lead but it didn't really degrade the excellent sound quality of the machine. Production of the CD104 continued between 1984 and 1985 and it came in 2 colours, dark silver grey and black, and minor periodic changes were also made to the circuitry. The final model in black was renamed the CD104B. The machines were also available under different brands including the Mission DAD7000 (with remote control), Marantz CD34, Schneider (France) CD 1104, the B&O (Denmark) CDX and there were even Matsui and Amstrad versions. These were all built in the Philips Hasselt factory in Belgium, and any bespoke casework added by the other manufacturers.

I acquired two examples of this model from members of the forum, a silver grey CD104 from Dave (G8HQP Dave) and a later black CD104B from John (detrain). Ron Bryan very kindly has done virtually all the work on these, but at this time only Dave's CD104 is working properly and details of its repair now follows.

A CD104 service manual is available free here ....

http://www.acec13.fr/tvc/Philips/doc...tion/cd104.pdf

but the most useful document about repairing the CD104 was this one written by Mike Leach for the Television magazine in 1992 which can be found here ....

http://www.acec13.fr/tvc/Philips/doc...D%20Player.pdf

I found out later that Mike is in fact a member of this forum and has very kindly given us a lot of advice on how to fix the problems with these machines over the phone !

On arrival the silver CD104 did not work when an attempt was made to play a CD, it struggled to read the TOC (table of contents) on the disc and eventually failed and then wouldn't play any tracks. Dave did say that the machine had once been fixed by Comet under warranty and after removal of the top cover that repair was soon found, a BD135 and BD136 transistor on the top servo board had been replaced (with a BD238 and a BD136) and two adjacent PTC thermistors had been removed and replaced by two 10 ohm resistors. The power supply was checked first, the PSU comes out the back panel in the same way as the one in the Marantz CD-73, and that was found to be absolutely fine - it's a different design to the one in the early Philips/Marantz models and it doesn't get hot.

Failure to read the TOC is a common problem with the CD104, and a fault on the servo board will cause this failure.
There are three servos under the control of this board, turntable, focus and radial, and overall control is handled typically by a MAB8440P-041 or MAB8440P-061 microprocessor. In the service manual and in Mike Leach's article, two 'service modes' to test the working of the servos are described so these were attempted and a scope was attached to the circuit so that the laser eye pattern could be viewed. With a disc loaded in the machine service loop A is invoked by simultaneously pressing stop/next/pause and switching the machine on at the mains wheupon the turntable should spin, incrementing numbers should appear on the display and a blurred eye pattern appear on the scope. Service loop A then continues by pressing the search reverse key for a couple of seconds whereupon the error, repeat and pause LEDs should come on, and a play bar appear in the digital display, and they all did. Pressing the search reverse key again should then revert back to the first part of the test. That all worked fine, and indicated that the laser, the turntable control and the focus control were working OK. Service loop B continues from service loop A and is invoked by pressing the search forward key for a couple of seconds whereupon the pause and error LEDs stay on, the play bar should go out, and the repeat LED should come on. This indicates that the radial servo has successfully been switched on whereupon a clearer eye pattern should appear on the scope and after a minute, music should start playing, Unfortunately the machine failed this second test, the error LED flashed after 40 seconds and the machine stopped. One usually exits from a successful service loop B test by simultaneously pressing the start/replay keys.

Once we knew the player had failed the radial servo test, a few voltage checks were made around the servo output stage, a 741 op amp with a current boosting complementary pair o/p stage. The output stage was stuck at +10V as was the 741 output, pumping a lot of current into the 19 ohm radial motor.. No reason for this could be found as the (wrong) transistors tested ok.

Referring again to Mike's article, the CD104 servo board does suffer from dry solder joints and also the griplets which connect the ground plane on the top surface of the board to the earth track underneath also fail, or even break. The reason for the 741 output being at 10V was then established, as its output should have been grounded by a griplet that proved to be o/c. The griplet was linked out and from then on the radial servo worked. (The complementary pair b/e junctions are driven from 120 ohm current sensing resistors in the 741 supply rails. Presumably the 741 output has to be grounded to make the op amp take enough supply current for this circuit to work). We also obtained new BD135/BD136 transistors from Sycom at Leatherhead, Ron then replaced the two transistors that Comet had untidily fitted 20 odd years ago, resoldered all dry looking joints and replaced all the griplets with short pieces of wire soldered both sides. The board was put back into the machine, retested and it passed both test modes and started to play discs.

However, Ron discovered a continuing potential problem in the machine, the radial servo BD136 replacement transistor gets rather hot (70+ degrees C), but only when the machine is idle with a disc still in the tray. Ron worked out that the MAB8440P-041 chip microDAC output was causing this as it was continuing to drive the radial servo, but interestingly, when a later MAB8440P-061 chip borrowed from the other CD104B machine was fitted in this one, the problem went away. Thinking maybe this was a faulty chip, I placed an ad on the forum for a spare chip and Mick (Mickmcmichael) very kindly sent me a spare MAB8440P-041 chip .... which behaved in exactly the same way as the original chip. So we have concluded that this is a 'feature' of this particular CD104 model which was corrected in the later CD104B model.

Ron also discovered another feature of the CD104. When attempting to search forward or back to a track a long away across a disc, the machine would give up and stop. Ron spent some time investigating this problem so I eventually phoned Mick Leach for help and he explained that these early Philips CD104 machines were only designed to successfully navigate around discs which have a playing time of up to 1 hour, so in fact there was nothing wrong with this early machine as it does indeed work perfectly with 1 hour discs.

I then asked on the forum to borrow Philips test discs 5 and 5A which are described in the Service Manual, mainly to help fix the other CD104B machine. No-one had them, but Norman (Norman Raeburn) very kindly gave me a Burosch test disc and lent me a pair of Technics test discs. We have only used the Burosch disc to date as I haven't found a Technics manual yet, and this has triangular strips of tape stuck on its surface over 15 tracks, to emulate an increasingly damaged disc. The CD104 did quite well considering this is a pretty tough test, it got through all 15 tracks but it was struggling towards the end. As a comparison I played the disc through my expensive 1996 Marantz CD63 mkII KI Signature machine and that only got to track 5 before it started to struggle and Ron's Akai machine gave up playing it after 4 tracks. But when placed in my Philips CD100 with its first generation CDM0 CD transport all 15 tracks played absolutely seamlessly !

This is a good old CD player which compared with modern machines is built very well (it weighs 7kg), particularly its hefty CDM1 CD transport which has a reputation of being almost indestructable. I really like the sound quality of these early Philips CD players which were designed to sound as 'analogue' as possible and I can listen comfortably to one for hours and hours, and looking through articles on the web, many other folk like the way the CD104 plays music too. My gratitude to Ron who spent a long time fixing it, to Dave for the machine, to Mike Leach for advice, to Mick for the spare chip, to Norman for the test discs, and to John for the other CD104B - hopefully fixed soon.

Howard
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Last edited by howard; 22nd Apr 2009 at 10:58 pm.
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Old 22nd Apr 2009, 11:06 pm   #2
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Wonderful write-up, Howard.

Well done for the link to Mike Leach's article; I haven't seen that for years. Great that you managed to make contact with him too.

I love the styling of these machines. The big multifunction button reminds me of the Hitachi VT11 video recorder.

Nick.
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Old 22nd Apr 2009, 11:27 pm   #3
Leon Crampin
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Hello Howard, I'm also a member of the CD104 fan club with a cosmetically immaculate example which I use with my Murphy A272C.

The through board rivet problem is well documented, but I have also had some problems with the power supply, especially the 7906 regulator. There is quite a bit to be done to improve the heatsinking of all the regulators apart fom the 7805 (the actual heatsink itself is pretty good) and at the same time, relieve the thermal stress on their soldered joints. Fixing a regulator to a heatsink with the leads soldered to the pc board is a thermal disaster - link wires must be used for thermal stress relief.

The tray-in switches never seem to work reliably - I used another tray-out microswitch fitted to the LH chassis panel and actuated by the same lug as is used for tray out. This works fine. The tray motor drive is marginal, even with a good loading belt. A cold machine which has stood for a while will not always fully close the tray. I'll look at this sometime.

The coupling capacitors in the output stage (22 uF I think) became noisy on my machine - they're all getting on a bit now and the reed relays need to be carefully checked if there is any intermittency. I think you could dispense with the pre-emphasis relays if you needed a spare muting relay - I've never seen a disk which needs them.

I must get the file out on my CD104 sometime - I'm sure I've fixed many other faults on it but like you, I like it a lot. The radial servo is excellent - my machine will play a disk whilst on its side.

I have the Philips manual by the way.

Leon.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 9:06 am   #4
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Somewhere in the dark recesses of what passes for my memory I seem to recall that the CD104 was quite happy at playing discs longer than 1 hour. In fact I distinctly remember checking one of these on a 70 min disc and it was fine.

When the original CD standard was developed, most discs were around 50 - 60 minutes and the guaranteed playing time by the player was 64 minutes (as quoted by Philips). Later however, disc manufacturers started to slowly increase playing times which meant that early players were operating at their limit. Later generations could cope with this and now will play 80 minute discs. I'm not sure that this is within the standard even now.

I know that Philips produced a leaflet at the time explaining that CD's with a playing time of more than 64 minutes were outside the original specification as laid down in the 'Red Book' standard and could not be guaranteed to play correctly.


Rich.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 10:23 am   #5
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Playing a disk with a >60 min. recorded duration is not generally a problem for the CD104, but navigating through the track list sometimes is. Most of the disks in my collection have relatively few tracks and I've not been aware of this - I'll keep a look out for it.

Leon.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 10:45 am   #6
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Newman View Post
Somewhere in the dark recesses of what passes for my memory I seem to recall that the CD104 was quite happy at playing discs longer than 1 hour. In fact I distinctly remember checking one of these on a 70 min disc and it was fine.....
Rich.
Hello Richard,

The CD104 will definitely play a 72 minute disc from beginning to end OK, but it won't necessarily successfully search forward to a track near or at the end of a disk which has a playing time > 60 (or 64) minutes. I'll have to try a selection of disks of varying lengths to verify its limitations, but it's not really a problem.

The earlier Philips CD100 and Marantz CD-73 players will navigate serially to the next track on any length of disk but they only have 15 track indicators so beyond track 15 one doesn't know which track is playing.

My 1989 Marantz CD65 II SE machine with the CDM4/19 transport and all my later players can navigate to any track on any length of disk and can indicate any track number playing.

Howard

Last edited by howard; 23rd Apr 2009 at 10:57 am.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 11:10 am   #7
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

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Originally Posted by Nickthedentist View Post
Wonderful write-up, Howard.
Well done for the link to Mike Leach's article; I haven't seen that for years. Great that you managed to make contact with him too.
I love the styling of these machines. The big multifunction button reminds me of the Hitachi VT11 video recorder.
Nick.
Thanks Nick,

CD104s are neat looking and are more compact than most later players. These late first generation machines are definitely worth looking out for, their transports are superbly engineered.

Howard

Last edited by howard; 23rd Apr 2009 at 11:28 am.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 11:26 am   #8
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon Crampin View Post
Hello Howard, I'm also a member of the CD104 fan club with a cosmetically immaculate example which I use with my Murphy A272C.

The through board rivet problem is well documented, but I have also had some problems with the power supply, especially the 7906 regulator. There is quite a bit to be done ...........
Leon.
Hello Leon,

This CD104 which belonged to Dave I understand has not had a great deal of use, it failed a second time 20 odd years ago and has sat in its box ever since so is in excellent cosmetic condition, except for a scratch on its front panel - I've just ordered a brand new panel for £11.99 and once fitted it will then be mint.

Drawers not quite closing is also a common problem with the CD104 I gather, neither of these examples suffer that problem yet .... one can still get the belts for £2.50 (plus a lot of P&P) from Charles Hyde if that's the cause.

The CD104B which has had a lot more use sometimes skips when playing, that one is proving to be more of a challenge to repair.

Interestingly most of the working CD104s which come up for sale on Ebay are the black CD104Bs ........

Howard

Last edited by howard; 23rd Apr 2009 at 11:39 am.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 11:59 am   #9
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Howard, Are the 104Bs labelled as such on the front? If not, how do you tell the apart?

Leon.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 12:04 pm   #10
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Indeed that CD104B was heavily used (and 100% reliable) from when I bought it new in 1987 until I got a DVD player in about 2001 and retired it. It only got occasional use thereafter before the fault developed.

It has also been moved between half a dozen houses in its time, always with the transit screws fitted. However it's possible the unreliability arose after bringing it home from the office a few miles away, where it was used for a while, without them fitted.

I do own one 20-track compilation CD of >74 minutes' duration, where it always started skipping part-way through the final track, even when playing the whole CD sequentially. I just accepted that the player couldn't cope with CDs that were too far out of tolerance of the original spec. I think I have other CDs as long that it played fine.

Not sure if any of its history will be of help but enjoy the challenge!
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 12:18 pm   #11
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

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Originally Posted by Leon Crampin View Post
Howard, Are the 104Bs labelled as such on the front? If not, how do you tell the apart?
Leon.
Hello Leon,

The CD104B still has CD104 printed on the front but on the back it's model number is CD104/65, the earlier CD104 is model CD104/05. The servo board in the CD104B is different, with fewer heatsinks on transistors and voltage regulators, plus it has the MAB8440P-061 microprocessor. It's likely that the board with the audio DACs is different too. I also noticed that CD104B's output phono lead is thicker too.

Howard
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 12:44 pm   #12
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

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Originally Posted by detrain View Post
Indeed that CD104B was heavily used (and 100% reliable) from when I bought it new in 1987 until I got a DVD player in about 2001 and retired it. It only got occasional use thereafter before the fault developed........ Not sure if any of its history will be of help but enjoy the challenge!
Thanks for the info John,

The CDM1 transport in your CD104B does show signs of wear, when the laser eye pattern is viewed on the scope, up and down movement is evident which suggests that maybe the turntable motor is worn, or the grease in its bearings has dried up as the turntable is noticably tighter than the one in the other player. We've tried lubricating its upper bearing with a little WD40 but without success. The skipping problem persisted even when the boards from the other CD104 were put in this one so it does look like the CDM1 transport is the problem.

Howard

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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 1:00 pm   #13
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

I was under the impression that the CD spec was originally up to 74 minutes per disc with a maximum of 99 tracks. This is equivalent to a 650M CD. Later discs especially CDRs have a capacity of 700M equivalent to a playing time of 80 minutes. Is there an amendment to the CD spec to cope with this?

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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 1:38 pm   #14
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

If it turns out that I've run it into the ground, perhaps it will be useful to you as a parts donor for other players in better mechanical shape but with failed electronic components.
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 1:54 pm   #15
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

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Originally Posted by KeithsTV View Post
I was under the impression that the CD spec was originally up to 74 minutes per disc with a maximum of 99 tracks. This is equivalent to a 650M CD. Later discs especially CDRs have a capacity of 700M equivalent to a playing time of 80 minutes. Is there an amendment to the CD spec to cope with this?

Keith
Hello Keith,

I think you're right, see this article on wikipedia ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact..._and_diameters

I suspect that the 64 minute limitation related to this early Philips machine, not to the discs.

Howard
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 1:59 pm   #16
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

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If it turns out that I've run it into the ground, perhaps it will be useful to you as a parts donor for other players in better mechanical shape but with failed electronic components.
Hello John,

We haven't given up repairing it yet, but rest assured, it won't be binned, it is in very good cosmetic condition.

Howard
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 3:49 pm   #17
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Thanks, Howard - my machine is a 104B (/65). As you point out, the front panel is marked CD104.

No wonder I didn't spot the radial servo output device getting hot - I would have noticed this during my frequent tours of the works. Maybe the "B" has a less good power supply in terms of heatsinking. I certainly found the need to improve this, and have had no trouble with it since.

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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 6:58 pm   #18
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

Quote:
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I was under the impression that the CD spec was originally up to 74 minutes per disc with a maximum of 99 tracks.
Hmmm! You might be right about 74 minutes....it was over 25 years ago that I saw this. Pity I don't have access to the original Philips notes anymore. They kept on quoting 'guaranteed playability' and also mentioned that the theoretical maximum was 'close on to 80 minutes'. However at these disc lengths, the errors were greater because the digital information was extended right to the edge of the disc so the focus servo (up and down movement) and radial servo (horizontal movement) are at their greatest. Therefore the servos' are working at maximum and the error correction is working flat out.

It's possible that techniques for making CD's improved rapidly and therefore the length of CD's could be reliably improved.

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Old 14th May 2009, 1:05 pm   #19
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

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If it turns out that I've run it into the ground, perhaps it will be useful to you as a parts donor for other players in better mechanical shape but with failed electronic components.
Hello again,

The CD104B seems to be working OK now as well but we're not sure why, so I can't declare it a Success Story yet. Faults were found and fixed and the track skipping problem then became intermittant. The last thing done to it was the cleaning/fiddling with all the connectors, and it works OK now but we're not convinced it's permanently sorted.

I bought a 1984 Marantz CD-54 recently which is one of the first Japanese built Philips CD players, and is very similar to the CD104 and uses the same transport and chipset etc. It's totally original and works absolutely perfectly. This version has no griplets on its PCBs.

Howard
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Old 14th May 2009, 1:36 pm   #20
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Default Re: 1984 Philips CD104 CD player restoration

I have a vague recollection that when the skipping fault first started to emerge it was worse when switched on from cold, but once it had been playing for a while it was OK. It might be interesting to test whether 'intermittent' now equates to 'not warmed up'.
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