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Old 29th May 2018, 9:16 am   #1
McMurdo
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Default Life Scientific, Radio 4

This morning Jim Al Khalili is interviewing the inventor of the safety thermostat and automatic kettle switch, (from Otter Controls). Very interesting!
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Old 29th May 2018, 11:44 am   #2
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

Was that what I heard when somebody said that if all American Kettles automatically switched off [as in the UK] the energy saving would be phenomenal Kevin?

I'd no idea there was a difference in "Kettle Culture"! Thermostats and Kettles often feature on here so that's a good pick

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Old 29th May 2018, 6:46 pm   #3
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

Yes! Very interesting guy. I didn't realize but after he left the family firm of Otter Controls, he was one of the founders of Strix. Between Otter & Strix they pretty much have the kettle market sewn-up.

Also a discussion about changing an idea into a production item.

Back when kettles were worth repairing I dismantled my Auntie's kettle which had a strix switch-off unit. The contacts were welded shut and the little push bar had melted. I fixed it ok, but was dismayed that the little push bar was made of a low melting point plastic that had melted and caused the mains contacts to fall open.

This programme, now 20 years later told me that the little melting plastic push bar in Strix kettle switches is a safety device that severs the mains if the contacts weld shut to prevent fire in plastic kettles! You live and learn, I just thought it was poor design.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b42z87
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Old 29th May 2018, 6:55 pm   #4
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
Was that what I heard when somebody said that if all American Kettles automatically switched off [as in the UK] the energy saving would be phenomenal Kevin?

I'd no idea there was a difference in "Kettle Culture"! Thermostats and Kettles often feature on here so that's a good pick

Dave
I don't think there's much demand for electric kettles in the USA. Coffee machines? - Yes! But kettles for making tea - not really.

Martin
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Old 29th May 2018, 7:38 pm   #5
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

Good point Martin, I will check that one out. Maybe the guy meant something similar Cerainly not a Percolator as they stay on by definition. I always thought that most tea drinking was on the East Coast-ironic really, considering the Boston Tea Party

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Old 29th May 2018, 10:02 pm   #6
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

I thought that the most interesting thing he said was about patents; he'd never seen one that he couldn't work around it to make a new product.

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Old 29th May 2018, 10:24 pm   #7
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

He didnt mention electric kettles in america. He was referring to American Kettles (boiled on the stove) being swapped for british automatic kettles (ie electric) as they are vastly more efficient and switch off as soon as they have boiled. A stove top kettle just whistles and it's up to the user to decide when to take it off the heat.
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Old 29th May 2018, 11:34 pm   #8
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

I listened to the repeat this evening. Very worthwhile. It also explains for the questioner in another thread why Strix "are located on the Isle of Man". Not "financial reasons, but somewhere GOOD to bring up two young sons.
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Old 30th May 2018, 6:45 am   #9
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

I heard it last night, very interesting bloke. His advice on how to market inventions was interesting, instead of trying to sell an idea, he said to build a finished product.

As a single parent I take my hat off to him for giving up his job and bringing his kids up instead of leaving it to child carers; the greatest gift you can give to kids is your time.

Andy.
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Old 30th May 2018, 8:38 am   #10
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

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Originally Posted by Diabolical Artificer View Post
I heard it last night, very interesting bloke. His advice on how to market inventions was interesting, instead of trying to sell an idea, he said to build a finished product.
He was 80, and still firing on all intellectual cylinders.

I learned the finished product thing before a road trip through pharmaceuticals companies in the US with a new diagnostic concept, 30-odd years ago. The guy who was the door opener, ex deputy CEO of J&J with an amazing contact list, told me before hand that the way of selling it was not to talk about the technology. "Have something built. It really doesn't have to work. Maybe a lid that opens and a few lights to come on. A "test strip" you can poke in. That is the something that these guys will understand immediately". I had something made by an industrial designer that looked for all the world like a finished product.
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Old 30th May 2018, 9:19 am   #11
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

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I don't think there's much demand for electric kettles in the USA. Coffee machines? - Yes! But kettles for making tea - not really.
Electric kettles are a less practical proposition in the US with their 120V at 15A single phase mains supply than in Europe and other parts of the world that have 230V mains supplies.
If you want a decent volume of water to boil in an acceptably short period of time, less than 2kW won't really cut it.

John
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:01 am   #12
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

Yes, a visiting US friend saw my electric kettle and bought one to take home with him but was sadly disappointed: running it off 120V it took forever to boil. A quick calculation shows it would have taken at least 4 times as long as in the UK.

Fortunately he had a couple of 234V outlets in his kitchen (they've been pretty much standard-fit in US kitchens for the last few decades in order to drive things like tumble-driers and washing-machines) so there was an easy solution at hand.

Listening to the Jim Al Khalili program, the interviewee was to my way of thinking precisely the kind of entrepreneurial technologist the UK needs more of: he knew the science but more importantly he knew how to sell it and turn a decent profit from it.
However good you are at inventing/making something, if you don't understand how to market it (or to create the market for it where none existed previously) and to make a profit from it, you might as well not have bothered inventing it in the first place.
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Old 30th May 2018, 1:00 pm   #13
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

I think that thought may well have gone through the mind of the wonderfull Trevor [Wind Up Radio] Baylis at some point. Just before his sad death, I was reading that he was due to lose his home on Eel Pie Island. Apparently, due to technicalities, it seemed that others were able to replicate his invention and cash in. He was unable to do anything about it

Dave
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Old 30th May 2018, 3:13 pm   #14
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

Absolutely spot-on about the marketing dimension being crucial.

As we heard on the programme, patents can often been 'got round' by detail work. That, and the sheer cost of worldwide coverage, and the further costs involved in enforcing them when they are contravened, made me wonder whether it was worthwhile patenting a certain invention of my own (no mention here of what it might be please) at all. In the event, I let it lapse after 'patent pending'.

After all, once it's out on the market and (say) discoverable on the internet, it represents 'prior art', so nobody else can patent it in future either. True, anyone else can copy it (and since have) but since it now doesn't possess intellectual property content that can be sold on, it becomes less attractive, and with any luck the original inventor (me) will stay ahead of them in the game!

You may be able to pick holes in the above. I claim to be no expert in this particular can of worms. I simply don't have the patience for all the 'legalese'... All I know is I have saved a packet in costs. So long as I'm not contravening anyone else's rights, I simply want to get on with the making and selling...

Steve
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Old 30th May 2018, 6:11 pm   #15
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

I agree entirely. In a patent you have to disclose a "reduction to practice", which has to be sufficiently detailed that someone else "skilled in the art" could build one. You basically have to write a recipe to build the thing.

So you have to police the patent - to spot of someone is plagiarising it. And then, apart from the considerable costs of patenting, particularly worldwide, you have to have deep enough pockets to sue. Internationally.

That is why, generally, it is larger companies who are successful patenters - they have a legal arm one of whose functions is suing plagiarisers.

Of course since a patent has to be detailed is where the opportunity arises in spotting work-arounds. In other words you invent something better, and patent it. Which is where the guy on DID mainly operated.

But there are all sorts of stories about where patenting goes wrong. One example is Nespresso, who absolutely had a valuable invention. But they put working prototypes out for trial marketing before they patented it. And that totally scuppers them - disclosing a product before patenting works like prior art - and their patent is disallowed. It is such a fundamental howler that it would be funny if it was not so serious for Nespresso.

Craig
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Old 30th May 2018, 6:19 pm   #16
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Default Re: Life Scientific, Radio 4

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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
I think that thought may well have gone through the mind of the wonderfull Trevor [Wind Up Radio] Baylis at some point. Just before his sad death, I was reading that he was due to lose his home on Eel Pie Island. Apparently, due to technicalities, it seemed that others were able to replicate his invention and cash in. He was unable to do anything about it

Dave
Problem is that patents are only in force for 17 years from the date of grant (it is territory dependent though). After that time, it is open for anyone to built it without royalties.

That is one of the reasons that companies drag their heels as long as possible after filing and publication of the filing. Because although the patent lasts for 17 years, you can plead back for royalties for the time between publication of the filing and grant. So it extends the effective royalty life of the patent.

But yes - I did feel very sorry for Trevor Bayliss
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