safety around electricity in earlier times

[skodajag]

This was prompted by the widening discussion of safety in relation to the Ferguson set under Radio Repair Help. I have several books on wireless from the 1930's and 1940's. All are designed for the beginner. Some describe how to fix faults on sets, others tell you how to make sets, battery and mains. Interestingly, none of these start off with a warning of the dangers, or have any any advice at all on safety. Indeed the word "safety" doesn't even appear in the index of any of them. Was it simply assumed that novices didn't need such advice? Or that a few electric shocks wouldn't do them much harm? Why did safety become an issue in the late 1950's? A huge cultural shift too place then and later, at least in the writing about these things, but why did it occur when it did?

[peter_scott]

Since a fair proportion of early sets would be powered from batteries with a maximum voltage of 120 I guess it was less of an issue. Also the use of d.c. mains probably resulted in fewer fatalities. It is only when you get to 240 volt a.c. that things become really dicey due to the paralising effects of the a.c. such that the victim is not thrown off.

Peter.

[Darren-UK]

Attitudes are also much different now to what they were donkeys years ago; for one thing, we didn't then have all this business of claiming for damages/compensation for the slightest little thing. This is largely the reason for all the health and safety paranoia that exists today.

Also, years ago, parents maintained stricter control of their children. I was constructed in 1955 and even that recently, relatively speaking, my parents supervised me to the extent that I was warned to stay away from mains electricity or anything else that common sense dictated could be hazardous. I didn't always take any notice though

Although not old enough to remember personally, I have also heard people say many times that sixty or seventy years ago, for example, if a mishap occurred due to something like a burn or electric shock - then it was simply down to the person concerned for being clumsy, stupid or just downright maverick. "You'll know better next time, let that be a lesson to you" is a phrase which comes to mind.

We also have to remember that during the specific period mentioned, the 1930s/40s, not everybody had mains electricity; therefore any risks or accidents would have been potentially far less common than they are in the present day. As Peter said above, especially in rural areas most radios would have been battery/accumulator powered.

[evingar]

If you go a back a fair way, I also think peoples attitude to mortality has changed. I was fortunate enough to have a Great Grandmother who reached an age of 101. The attitude was that in her youth was that you had to have a fair few children because some were bound to die. Maybe this notion went onto into the next generation in the 20s and 30s? I'm not saying people wanted their children to die, - just they had to face facts, so there was just an easier acceptance of death than we have today. You could maybe add to that the massive loss of life in WW1 and WW2 that made unexpected death of people an common occurrence and so more "acceptable".
Aside from all this the occasional death from someone sticking his or her fingers into a wireless set (whilst unfortunate) may have seemed “small beer” on the risk front! As the risks to people generally have decreased, that “beer” became relatively larger and so “something had to be done” (etc).

[mickjjo]

I think the attached cutting from "Popular Wireless" July 3rd 1937 sums up the attitude to safety in prewar times .

Regards, Mick.

[Heatercathodeshort]

Perhaps its because a huge money earning, tax collecting 'agency' has sprung up with 'Health and Safety...plus vat of course. I'm glad I'm 58 and not 18.
Regards, John.

[stephanie]

Yeah, well, it was the dumb &*(*#@'s fault for taking the radio to the bathroom with her!

Common sense seems to have evolved out of the human race in the past 40-50 years.

I have a mains radio in the bathroom. I know better than to bring it into the bathtub with me. Electricity and water do NOT mix - something I was taught since I was in first grade of elementary school

[Darren-UK]

A couple of things stand out in the scan Mick posted earlier.

1. The most that seemed to happen in the Lightfoot case was that the coroner, at a routine inquest, issued nothing more than a common sense warning. Today such a case would give the media a field day, the HSE would be in ecstacy and solicitors and courts would be buzzing with activity.

2. The comment ".....may be made dangerous by using it in such conditions" seems, to me, to have a very casual approach. May be made dangerous ? it IS dangerous.....full stop. This comment also seemed to imply that radios or other electrical equipment was perfectly safe otherwise. It was, of course, if used and handled correctly ..... which is where common sense comes into it; a blast from the past which is nowadays superceded by the HSE brigade.

Of course, Micks scan was from 'Popular Wireless' but I wonder if the bathtub incident made the local or even national press ? The former possibly, the latter doubtful.

[Alan_Douglas]

It always takes time for regulations to catch up to new conditions. Presumably many people in the 1930s did not even have indoor plumbing and grounded bathtubs, so a hot-chassis radio would have been less of a problem.

Here in the US most houses are wood-frame construction, and fifty or more years ago, there were few earth grounds available around the house.

[Aerodyne]

The house I lived in as a child in the 1940s was typical of others in the area - one - only one - mains point and that a 5A three-pin outlet running from the lighting circuit. Consequently, radios and other items, even a single bar electric fire, were connected to power via lampholder adapters from the central ceiling rose. No earth here of course, and pot luck as to polarity. Even the nominally three-pin outlet wasn't properly earthed, however.
Nobody died, though a few shocks occurred over the years!
It's all gone too far. Regulations designed to prevent idiots from sueing for disproportionate compensations for self-inflicted injuries has effectively limited electrical work by the knowledgeable amateur unless he is prepared to pay someone who may actually know less than him to 'pass' his work as safe. But, as the saying goes, it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. '£150, sir? I don't mind if I do.Yep, that's OK. Make the cheque payable to...'
I am not advocating a return to 1940s laissez-faire attitudes but surely we've gone too far the other way? Maybe I'm being unfair to those who are empowered to test installations... after all, we are all victims of the nanny state.
-Tony

[stevekendal]

I can just about remember, as a nipper in the mid fifties our house had just one unscreened 2-pin socket per room I gave my mum a "shock" one day when she found me sitting on the lounge floor next to one such socket and clutching 2 knitting needles with some charred paper next to me. (dont try that at home folks). LIfe was so much more relaxed then Above my parents bed there was a so-called lazy switch hanging that would give you a good tingle when you used it, but with no earth path nearby, you werent going to die Come to think, one of those over the the old pit might liven things up a bit nowadays Oh, and you could buy adaptors in Woolies to plug into the ceiling light and plug your radio or telly in. Ahh, Happy daze Steve.

[G8DLG]

It is against the wiring regulations to have a power point in the bathroom,(apart from the light switch which must not be accessible to someone in or at the tub or washbasin) is a socket for a shaver,which must be fed from a floating supply.
This is to ensure that no electrical appliance could be operated in the bathroom,now to me perfectly sensible,so I wonder how the mains radio could have been used by someone in the bath,I wonder if it had a long lead? which could refer to another reg,that no portable appliance to have a lead which is longer that 6ft.
If people follow the rules, and did not modify equipment no one would get killed!

[skodajag]

Thanks for all your thoughts. Tony remarks "Nobody died, though a few shocks occurred over the years!". Exactly my memory too. Today we are told over and over again on the safety front that electric shocks can be fatal. I know they can but, in practice, how often are they, actually? (leaving aside the radio - or electric fire - on the side of the bath). Through my own carelessness over the last 50 years I've had many shocks and I'm still here. That said I don't want any more and these days am very careful. Another regrettable aspect of the health and safety culture is always to stress the worst scenario - which gets to be so ridiculous that in practice we tend to ignore it all together. And that's a real danger in itself. On the 1950's - I seem to recall Tony mentioning to me that televisions presented greater dangers than radios (sorry if this is either wrong or obvious but I'm still a novice in these matters) so maybe that was a factor in the growing stress on safety at that time?

[Darren-UK]

Originally Posted by G8DLG

It is against the wiring regulations to have a power point in the bathroom,(apart from the light switch which must not be accessible to someone in or at the tub or washbasin) is a socket for a shaver,which must be fed from a floating supply.
This is to ensure that no electrical appliance could be operated in the bathroom,now to me perfectly sensible,so I wonder how the mains radio could have been used by someone in the bath,I wonder if it had a long lead? which could refer to another reg,that no portable appliance to have a lead which is longer that 6ft.
If people follow the rules, and did not modify equipment no one would get killed!

I wondered that too and came to the conclusion the radio was probably connected to the bathroom light fitting ( assuming the bathroom had one at that time ), as was not unusual those days - at least in other rooms of the house.

[Brased]

Extension lead from the socket on the landing?

Edward

[Phil G4SPZ]

Oddly enough, the proposed new edition of BS7671 (the so-called "IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition") is likely to permit mains sockets in bathrooms. However, all sockets are going to have to be fed from an RCD.

An earlier contributor commented that AC mains were more dangerous than DC mains. I'm too young to have known DC mains, but reading some of Gerry Wells's recollections made my hair stand on end I always believed that a DC shock was more severe, and that any arc drawn was likely to be more damaging as the voltage doesn't go through a zero point and have to be re-established every 20 milliseconds as with AC. Am I right?

Phil

[PJL]

Regarding the 909U thread that started all this, a set that leaves the chassis live on switching off by having a single pole switch to chassis, you might all be amused to know that the trader sheet on describing dismantling the set indicates it had push fit knobs over the protruding live shafts!

I uncovered a wide two pin ceramic socket dumped under the floorboards of our house along with a similar period light switch (electricians never change!).

[stuie319]

Originally Posted by G4SPZ

Oddly enough, the proposed new edition of BS7671 (the so-called "IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition") is likely to permit mains sockets in bathrooms. However, all sockets are going to have to be fed from an RCD.

The house I bought 7 or so years back has a former bedroom that serves as a bathroom (100 year old terrace that in the past relied on outdoor khazi and a 'laundry' cellar) and on moving in I raised my eyebrows at a modern double socket flush mounted on the wall 18 or so inches away from the bath! Now of course I realise it shouldnt be there....and my first thoughts were to blank it off, but - its a large room and thing is so useful I wouldnt be without it now....but then I have the sense not to trail multiway extensions on the bathmat or decide the toaster needs to accompany me in the tub
Some products are designed to be used in the bathroom while fed from an external socket, those spa pump affairs spring to mind, supplied with fitted RCD plug; potentially hazardous one would have thought if the user replaced it with a conventional type and was careless........

[Darren-UK]

Originally Posted by PJL

Regarding the 909U thread that started all this, a set that leaves the chassis live on switching off by having a single pole switch to chassis, you might all be amused to know that the trader sheet on describing dismantling the set indicates it had push fit knobs over the protruding live shafts!

That does seem quite amusing when you compare it with the rigmarole required to remove the knobs from, say, a DAC90/A and also those radios that use a steel grubscrew to lock the knobs and then a plastic grubscrew on top.

Moving on from that point, I've read a couple of comments within this thread to the effect that unearthed bathtubs/plumbing posed less risk of fatal electrocution. It therefore seems there are for and against arguments concerning grounded plumbing. In the light of that, this may seem a totally stupid question, but what is the specific reason for regulations requiring plumbing to be grounded ?

[G8DLG]

Originally Posted by peter_scott

Since a fair proportion of early sets would be powered from batteries with a maximum voltage of 120 I guess it was less of an issue. Also the use of d.c. mains probably resulted in fewer fatalities. It is only when you get to 240 volt a.c. that things become really dicey due to the paralising effects of the a.c. such that the victim is not thrown off.

Peter.

It is easier to get a shock from ac,since insulating material is no barrier (because of the capacitive effects),also the higher peak voltage.At the same time it could be said its safer,since you can get a tingle from AC that you would not get with DC thereby alerting you to a potential fault/hazard.
DC is used for to shock the heart into operation,but AC kills as used in execution.With DC you will feel the effect of the current heating the body tissues,any ripple if any would be felt also.With AC its more of the alternation of current you feel,but dont try any of this though!
The biggest danger with DC is possibly arcing,remember this is the real stuff,once its flowing in the circuit doesnt like to be stopped,who ever heard of an alternating water supply,or gas supply!