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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 7th Jan 2021, 12:22 pm   #1
Martin Bush
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Default Cassette tape types

Hi all

At some point I will take the plunge and get a decent cassette recorder.

As well as a decent machine I will, of course, need tapes. I have a stash of NOS Type 1s and maybe a couple of NOS Type 2 as well as a selection of used ones I have unearthed from my past.

I have to admit that type 1 tapes have always sounded fine to me, as do most pre-recorded ones.

So, would I hear any benefit in investing in more expensive Type 2 and Metal cassettes?

I am tempted to get a few Metal tapes simply because some of them look like very nice pieces of engineering. But then do I love any piece of music enough to record it onto a cassette that's cost more than many collectable LPs?

So I guess my question is whether, in a blind testing, you could identify a piece of music recorded properly onto each of the different types of tape and whether one really is better (rather than simply different) than the other.

Martin
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 1:37 pm   #2
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

I believe I could yes. The finer particles and the improved coercivity of a high quality tape enable greater detail to be laid down. Add to that the ability to record at higher levels on a high quality tape and the noise floor will be lower.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 4:32 pm   #3
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Thanks Steve.

I'm finding my journey into tape interesting.

Until I can get myself set up with the proper gear (which I plan to do, just not yet) I am enjoying pre-recorded tapes, some of which are Chrome (according to the labels) and am impressed by the quality.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 4:36 pm   #4
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Metal tapes are a bit of a waste of time in my view.

Type II tapes are engineered to operate with different pre/deemphasis so give a quieter noise floor, though prerecorded ones use type I emphasis for compatibility with cheap players.

The quality of the tape is much more important than if it is type I or II. It's also important to choose a tape stock which matches the deck calibration, as otherwise the tape may be under or over biassed and there will be Dolby mistracking. Depending on the era and with some exceptions, Japanese decks will be set up for Maxell UDXL-I or TDK AD for type I, and Maxell UDXL-II or TDK SA for type II. European decks like Eumigs may be set up for BASF LH and BASF Chromdioxid, which are awful tapes on Japanese decks unless they've been recalibrated.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 4:41 pm   #5
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Again, that's interesting.

I expect when the time comes I will be looking at Technics, Sony and Yamaha decks which would put me in the Japanese camp.

Having said that, if I see any tape at a reasonable price I snap it up.

I happened across a very old Phillips blank cassette not long ago that had Derek and Clive recorded on it... well, it was only £1. Although the comic material was very poor indeed I was impressed with the sound quality. I suppose it will have been recorded on a decent deck at the time. Playback on the Aiwa you know about was very good.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 4:45 pm   #6
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

It depends what you're recording. The most noticeable difference between type I (normal) and type II (chrome) tapes, in my experience, is the lower background noise on the type II tapes. Whether it's audible or not depends on the type of material recorded. A non-stop DJ mix would leave no space for hearing any background noise, but a live recording of a harp probably would.

Beyond that, the type II and type IV (metal) tape formulations can take progressively higher recording levels before distortion and limiting sets in, especially at high frequencies, so instruments like cymbals sound clearer especially in loud passages. I have some type IV cassettes which were recorded from CDs 30 years ago and they still sound astonishingly good today.

There is one aspect of cassette marketing which rarely seems to get pointed out, and I wish I'd known about when I was using a lot of cassettes. The frequency response of a cassette recording is very, very sensitive to the bias level used. Too much bias and the high frequencies start to disappear. Too little bias and the treble is boosted. Most cassette decks don't allow the user to set the bias other than in the coarse I/II/IV steps, usually done automatically. The tape manufacturers knew this and took advantage of it. Their more expensive formulations, even within the same tape type (for example TDK D, AD, AD-X, AR and so on) had a higher optimum bias level, so on a given cassette deck they'd sound "brighter" and better. The change in sound was more dramatic than any of the more subtle improvements in background noise, distortion or maximum overload level, so the user would be happy to pay more for the better tape.

It turns out a pretty basic tape (Maxell UR is still commonly available) can produce excellent results, but the bias setting is critical. When I worked with a student radio station in the 1990s, there was a slightly dog-eared 1970s top loading cassette deck (I think it might have been a Bush) which was used to allow presenters to record their shows. I was always puzzled that it seemed to get amazingly good results from cheap tapes - better than my own, relatively new, Technics hi-fi deck managed. Looking back, I suspect it just had a lower bias setting which suited the cheap tapes particularly well. The tape manufacturers would much rather you bought a more expensive cassette, though!

Chris
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 4:48 pm   #7
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

And that's why fine, or auto bias adjustment is an important feature on a cassette deck.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 4:50 pm   #8
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

As a general rule, any of the Japanese tape formulations will work well in a Japanese deck. The exception is TDK type Is from the late 70s / early 80s. TDK only produced 2 type I formulations at that time, D and AD. D was a very low bias tape and would sound awful on decks set up for AD. Conversely AD was a very high bias tape and sounded sibilant and overly bright on decks set up for D. It was all a bit of a minefield.

TDK subsequently tweaked the D formulation so that it performed better with more bias.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 5:25 pm   #9
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bush View Post

I happened across a very old Phillips blank cassette not long ago that had Derek and Clive recorded on it... well, it was only £1. Although the comic material was very poor indeed I was impressed with the sound quality.
Although very non PC, at the time I liked some of the Derek & Clyde recordings.

David
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 5:36 pm   #10
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

I used a lot of the TDK AD "Type II" tapes in the 80s/90s; they coped well with somewhat-compressed live gig recordings.

Equally though, in the same timeframe I had to distribute on a regular basis hundreds of C15 cassettes loaded with computer-software [to update CAMTEC JNT-PADs and Cambridge-Ring-82 PADs if you must know] and for those I found that - paradoxically - cheap ferric Type I tapes were the most reliable.

These days - given the unavailability of new tape-heads - I'd be interested in knowing just how abrasive the different oxide-formulations are.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 5:51 pm   #11
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

@G6Tanuki I have also wondered what the likelihood would be of me getting a nice deck and wearing the heads out. I play various analogue formats so it's not like I'd have it on all day every day.

@DMcMahon I like some of the Derek and Clive stuff, but this was a pretty poor effort. It started very well but descended into what sounded like forced swearing to fill time...

As regards the other comments on biasing etc it makes interesting reading. It's clearly not as simple as selecting any old deck from ebay that looks vintage
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 6:19 pm   #12
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
I used a lot of the TDK AD "Type II" tapes in the 80s/90s; they coped well with somewhat-compressed live gig recordings.
I think you mean SA, which was the standard 'everyday' TDK type II cassette at that time. It was a good formulation and a direct competitor to Maxell's UDXL II. AD was TDK's high end type I tape when introduced in the 70s and stayed in production for over 20 years, albeit with some tweaks.

AD was very popular with people using basic equipment, because the underbiasing brightened up the sound and partially compensated for dirty and poor quality tape heads. It was actually a very good formulation when used with the correct bias.

You are very unlikely to wear out the heads with a few years of normal domestic use, but you should check for wear if you buy someting. Some cassette decks lived very hard lives, particularly those with autoreverse which may have spent many years providing background music in shops and bars.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 6:56 pm   #13
Martin Bush
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Out of interest, the blank tapes I have at my disposal (a few of each) currently are...

BASF Sound Level 1 quality ferric
Maxell UR (red wrapper with green UR in sort of neon style)
Maxell UR (grey swirl wrapper with a picture of the Earth incorporated)
Sony CDitII chrome
TDK FE90
TDK D90


I'm not normally one for listing stuff but I think this suggests I'd be best with a Japanese deck as these tapes represent what i have sourced locally over recent years.

Is that a fair assessment?

Martin
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 7:19 pm   #14
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
I think you mean SA, which was the standard 'everyday' TDK type II cassette at that time. It was a good formulation and a direct competitor to Maxell's UDXL II. AD was TDK's high end type I tape when introduced in the 70s and stayed in production for over 20 years, albeit with some tweaks.

AD was very popular with people using basic equipment, because the underbiasing brightened up the sound and partially compensated for dirty and poor quality tape heads. It was actually a very good formulation when used with the correct bias.
You may be right: the cassettes are long-gone and so is the accuracy of my memory - but they definitely had the cut-out extra notch beside the notch with the tab-you-broke-off-to-write-protect-the-tape.

At trhe beginning, Dolby wasn't really an option for portable-gear-affordable-on-a-self-funding-student's-income - we generally just turned the treble up a bit, which caused audio-level-confusion when the mic was too close to the drummer's hi-hats.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 7:25 pm   #15
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Martin:

Yes, always go for a deck set up for the Japanese standards. That is the vast majority of course.

All the tapes you list are fairly basic 90s types, but none of them are rubbish. The Sony CDit is a TDK SA / Maxell UDXL-II type which I've used in the past with good results. The TDK D formulation has changed a lot over the years, but has good mechanics and will perform well with the correct bias. The URs are also good quality everyday tapes.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 7:26 pm   #16
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bush View Post

@DMcMahon I like some of the Derek and Clive stuff, but this was a pretty poor effort. It started very well but descended into what sounded like forced swearing to fill time...
I mainly knew their first 1976 album Derek & Clive Live, terrible language but being a fan of their earlier Pete & Dud characters from their TV shows and being relatively young (25 at release of the LP) some of it did seem very funny.

David
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 8:17 pm   #17
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

I wonder if the natural degradation of ones hearing with age has any bearing on this general subject discussion.

I know from checking my earing by listening to good quality loudspeakers fed with a wide range of test frequency tones (scope monitored at the amplifier output) done in recent years, that my HF hearing has reduced quite lot compared to similar tests done many years ago.

But I do not notice any difference when I listen to music that I know well, it sounds the same to me as when I would have listened 40-50 years ago.

So just wondering if hearing changes may affect the sometimes subtle (my opinion) differences between a good recording done on a basic deck compared to a good recording done on a top end deck with good tape and well biased etc.

Also sometimes I think it is somewhat subjective like wine tasting comparisons.

Just throwing this out here for further thought/comment.

David
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 9:27 pm   #18
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

You can measure the various differences in performance using impartial lab equipment. The hifi mags used to do this in the 70s and 80s. Of course, if you're deaf as a post you're not going to hear the differences.

It's normal for HF hearing to gradually deteriorate from your mid teens onwards, but that's not likely to cause an inability to distinguish between good and bad cassette recordings unless you have a real medical problem. Even a very good cassette recording will top out at about 12kHz - that's one of the reasons why it's only a borderline hifi technology. My own hearing goes to just above 10kHz, which is pretty typical for a 65 year old. You aren't aware of this loss because the brain compensates for it.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 11:35 pm   #19
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

Were Type III (Ferrichrome) tapes ever common?

I remember buying some TDK CDing (Type II) tapes in the late 1990s that sometimes seemed to play slow in the middle of a side, especially when played on a personal stereo.

I found re-recording seemed to sometimes sort this out, but at other times this didn't seem to help. I was wondering if the tape was sticking to itself slightly.

My sister had a talking book of The Lion The Witch & The Wardrobe which had similar problems when played in a car radio, with the narrator sounding like Barry White in the middle of each side.
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Old 8th Jan 2021, 12:09 am   #20
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Default Re: Cassette tape types

One of the benefits of buying one of the supposedly better tape types was that it could come in a better, more accurately made shell.

I used TDK SA regularly for years in a JVC deck with their Sen-Alloy head and had no problems, though come to think of it, those tapes did far mor hours in car machines with who knows what sort of heads. I'd rate it low on abrasion.

JVC made some reasonable middle range decks, by the way.

You've all got me wondering what Dereck Guyler and Clive Sinclair got up to together? I had a sheltered existence. Were they a bit like Blaster Bates?

David

(Guyler did the voice over for the parrot skeleton cassette tape advert, and Sinclair launched the need for a zillion tape players atached to computers, so it must be them that you were talking about)
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