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Old 14th Jan 2020, 2:07 am   #81
dave walsh
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

A point well made Jeremy!

Dave W
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 2:25 am   #82
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Hi USRAD. Same sort of thing but you may be slightly confused by the wording. In the UK if you own the land as well as the property it's "Freehold". In other words you have/hold ownership of the land as well as your home. Apartments [flats here] or houses may be leasehold ie the land is leased [rented] out for [say] 99 or 999 years.
Even if you buy the property, you may never own the land it sits on.

"Council Housing" relates to specific property built by the local town government [Council]. The US equivalent would be "The Projects" I guess [Council Estates here]. In both instances, they are built by the local community for rental to low income citizens but many UK houses have been privatised over the last few decades. In relation to this thread, the local Council owns that land at the back of the housing and controls it. You can rent a garage space but not own the ground. I don't know whether the houses themselves are Freehold or Leasehold! I hope this helps you.

Cheers,

Dave W


In Dylan's [ironic] comment on the state of the world [Desolation Row 1965] he says-

"Up on Housing Project Hill..It's either fortune or fame.
You must pick one or the other although neither of them are what they claim
If you're looking to get silly..
You' d better go back to from where you came!
Because the cops don't need you-
And man they expect the same".

Correction-not Desolation Row [or a reference to the garages] but the title is Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues

Dave W
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 12:21 pm   #83
David Simpson
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

'Fraid my sentiments are the same as Jeremy's in post 80. Its no secret that my vintage leanings are towards test equipment. And, with that in mind, my sympathies go out to any test equipment being kept in damp or unsuitable conditions. Whoever the owner might be. The longer folk prevaricate, dither, or fanny about - the more the T/Eq suffers.
To WD & anyone in a similar situation - spring is approaching, and its time to remove digit. Start now - plan ahead - using all the helpful advice given in this & previous threads - make some drawings, cost materials, organise manpower. Being a Forum member/vintage radio enthusiast/BVWS member - whatever - - doesn't restrict folk to communicating only through these blue lined pages. Remove your damp anorak, put on a jacket, and go out & meet fellow enthusiasts - in the flesh. This is the basis of the burgeoning "Men's Sheds" movement which, certainly in Scotland, is becoming hugely popular.
Then, you lucky lot down south, most of you are only an hour or two's drive from a multitude of vintage radio venues - Swapmeets, Museums, the NVCF, etc. Likewise, the large Amateur Radio fraternity, with their "Radio Shacks", must experience similar problems with damp & power supplies. Plus they hold regular meetings the length & breadth of the country where folk can get together for a good natter & cuppa.

Regards, David
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 12:30 pm   #84
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

A variation on what has been suggested - I have successfully used the “vacuum bags” sold for clothes storage. They are large with zipped openings or similar and with some silica bags in there before sealing and vacuuming, seem very effective. The need a check in case of leaks but most seal for months. See through and cheap too ! Watch for sharp corners on test gear though.

Ken
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 3:09 pm   #85
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

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Originally Posted by stuarth View Post
For the electricity to your outbuilding, you need to carefully consider the earthing arrangement, particularly is your property is TN-C-S, and/or if there is an extraneous conductive part in your outbuilding such as a metal frame, a water tap or an earth for an aerial system. There is a safety requirement for equipotential bonding, and some installations need substantial earth wires (10mm2 or more) back to the house earth.

Just exporting the earth from your house to the outbuilding may not be the best solution. Surprisingly, it may be better to make your outbuilding a TT system fed from an RCD, with all the earths in the outbuilding the bonded together, and not have any access to the house earth at the outbuilding.
Thanks. TN-C-S here AFAIKT. Not sure whether that means PME but the earth wire is clearly coming out of the cut out rather than being bonded to the incoming cable. When planning for the replacement shed I will do some Googling as you suggest. There are no metal objects or water pipes or anything of the kind attached to the shed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G0HZU_JMR View Post
In other words, it might be cheaper overall to accept that your stored test gear will have a shorter lifetime and you will have to pay to replace it more often.
Indeed that is a valid point, especially if i can further mitigate this by storing the more damp sensitive and valuable equipment indoors. For example, my replacement insulation tester (assuming this one is working when it arrives) will now be kept indoors rather than in the shed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambientnoise View Post
A variation on what has been suggested - I have successfully used the “vacuum bags” sold for clothes storage. They are large with zipped openings or similar and with some silica bags in there before sealing and vacuuming, seem very effective. The need a check in case of leaks but most seal for months. See through and cheap too ! Watch for sharp corners on test gear though.

Ken
That's an interesting idea that might actually work for one or two items until I can get a better shed sorted.

Although this thread has been primarily about dealing with damp and some very helpful suggestions have been offered, the additional information about supply and earthing have also been helpful, so thanks for all the replies.

It will clearly not be practical to get an electricity supply to the garage and converting it to a workshop may not be in harmony with the local authority guidelines so from both of these viewpoints the idea will have to be dropped, although I will work on getting the damp in there sorted if possible.

The consensus seems to be to scrapping the plastic shed and replacing it with a self-built wooden one would be an improvement. If therefore seems that this is the most sensible thing to do. Any planning will have to include provision of power and safety earth so this will be considered as part of any such project. How soon this can be accomplished given my state of health is another matter, but now seems to be a good time to plan ahead. The kitchen (which is progressing very slowly at present) has to take first priority though so it may be some time yet before I can get around to it, so in the meantime I will mitigate by bringing some equipment indoors and maybe protecting some items better by improving the means of storage, e.g using sealed containers or bags and desiccant. I do need to have a good spring clean so we will see how we go.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 3:37 pm   #86
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Just looked at the on-going Age Poll. Over 75% of forum membership is aged between 50 & 79 ! Folk getting older often encounter health problems. All the more reason for members of the vintage radio fraternity to chum up with others nearby & maybe help out with heavy shed building projects.

Regards, David
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 5:31 pm   #87
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

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Originally Posted by G0HZU_JMR View Post
Apologies in advance if this suggestion is unhelpful or too obvious but always consider the 'do nothing' option.
I think that this just about sums it up.

If you've got stuff that you value and use, then keep these items in the house. All the other stuff can take its chance out in the shed or garage.

I keep a lot of stuff in the loft and I'll admit that I've probably got far to much up there, but my loft is quite large and felted under the tiles and there's always that little bit of heat that migrates upwards from the house, plus having slight permanent ventilation all around the edges. It may look like a random mess up there, but any heaver items are placed over or very near to where there are supporting walls below - you don't want your ceilings sagging and cracking in the rooms below!

Even my mig welder comes in the house for the winter and is stood on a nice carpet in a back room at this very moment. Anything else electrical that comes in out of the cold and damp to be powered up and used gets several days to acclimatize to its surroundings before I even think about powering it up.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 6:04 pm   #88
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
Hi USRAD. Same sort of thing but you may be slightly confused by the wording. In the UK if you own the land as well as the property it's "Freehold". In other words you have/hold ownership of the land as well as your home. Apartments [flats here] or houses may be leasehold ie the land is leased [rented] out for [say] 99 or 999 years.
Even if you buy the property, you may never own the land it sits on.

"Council Housing" relates to specific property built by the local town government [Council]. The US equivalent would be "The Projects" I guess [Council Estates here]. In both instances, they are built by the local community for rental to low income citizens but many UK houses have been privatised over the last few decades. In relation to this thread, the local Council owns that land at the back of the housing and controls it. You can rent a garage space but not own the ground. I don't know whether the houses themselves are Freehold or Leasehold! I hope this helps you.

Cheers,

Dave W


In Dylan's [ironic] comment on the state of the world [Desolation Row 1965] he says-

"Up on Housing Project Hill..It's either fortune or fame.
You must pick one or the other although neither of them are what they claim
If you're looking to get silly..
You' d better go back to from where you came!
Because the cops don't need you-
And man they expect the same".

Correction-not Desolation Row [or a reference to the garages] but the title is Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues

Dave W
When I closed on the purchase of my home, I read the small print regarding the lease on the land for 99 years.
I commented on the fact and exclaimed, "You mean, I have to go through this thing again 99 years from now?"
Dave, USradcoll1, custodian of all interesting items.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 7:37 pm   #89
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Quote:
If you've got stuff that you value and use, then keep these items in the house. All the other stuff can take its chance out in the shed or garage.
Agreed. For some time now I've kept my old Tek 585 scope in the garage. It is soon to be joined by other items of test gear that I rarely use. I don't want to throw these items away or sell them because they have sentimental value.

I don't like the idea of leaving them there in the garage but the alternative is to dispose of them by sale or a trip to the tip. There is no room in the house for them.

I have a wooden shed in the garden that seems remarkably dry inside considering it is not the most solid design. It is also sat on top of concrete paving slabs that are on top of basic hardcore and sand. So no membrane under the shed. That is an alternative location but I think the garage is a slightly better environment.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 11:02 am   #90
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

David Simpson has good advice on electricity to outbuildings in post 58

Exporting power connections to the outbuilding is not rocket science, but safely exporting the earth connection needs more thought.

The reason that there are earth wires festooned around your plumbing is because some fault conditions can cause earths to rise above ground potential.

One of the worse fault conditions is with TN-C-S (PME) systems, where there is one conductor carrying combined neutral and earth from the substation to your premises, and that conductor is broken. This combined NE conductor is earthed at the substation and at multiple points along its length (the PME bit), but there may not be many such earth points between you and the break. Any load current in your house, and possibly your neighbours if they are also after the break, now tries to get back to the sub station through the ground. With appreciable ground resistance, the earth wire of your electricity supply, ie your protective earth, could rise significantly above ground potential.

In the worst case, the voltage on your protective earth could rise close to full mains, giving the impression that all the power had failed, when actually the system was far from dead.

With this fault, the currents in the RCDs are balanced (the fault is on the supply side of the RCD) so they will not trip, nor will any MCBs or fuses.

To protect you from electric shock, the wiring regulations say that all extraneous conductive parts, ie any metal which might have a connection to the ground, be securely bonded to the protective earth, then everything in your house is at the same potential.

In the case where your extraneous connection to ground is the lowest resistance path, eg a metal water pipe, most of the load current would flow through the bonding wires, so there are rules on the size of those bonding wires. In general they must be thicker than the supply wire, presumably so that the supply wire burns out first!

So onto the outbuilding. You could export your house protective earth with the correct gauge of wire (not the case for an extension lead) and bond any extraneous metal in the outbuilding to that. Or you could give your outbuilding a good, reliable earth such an RF earth, bond everything in the outbuilding to that, then isolate the outbuilding from the house earth, and feed power through an RCD. If the feed is through armoured cable, the armour should be earthed at the house end and insulated at the outbuilding end. Effectively, you’ve made your outbuilding a TT installation.

Feeding an outbuilding through a normal extension cable does not meet the wiring regs, but if you have no ground connection there, the floor is dry, etc, I suppose it’s not a lot different to using power tools in the garden. You would have to promise yourself that you would consider a proper part P installation if you ever added an earth spike for your vintage radios!

Sorry to have harked on about this, or to be preaching to the converted, but I don’t think the reasons for all that wire on your plumbing is fully appreciated, especially by those new to our hobby.

Stuart
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 12:11 pm   #91
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Stuart has hit the nail on the head. There can never be enough "Harking On" about electrical safety & earthing in the 2nd decade of the 21st century.
No doubt some "stick in the muds" will bemoan Stuart's hard stance, just as they've bemoaned me banging-on in this & other previous threads. ' Run a spur here, run an extension cable there', is poor advice, in my book.
" My Book" - having, prior to retirement, spent 11 years as an Electricity Board's Installation Inspector. I've seen it all - decent work by NICEIC electricians, shoddy work by keen DIY householders, plus occasional disastrous work by out & out cowboys. Not to mention burnt-out sheds, garages & outbuildings, & the occasional house ! What did I do - - pulled the heffing mains fuse, sealed the cut-out, & told the consumer to heff-off & employ a decent registered electrician, or words to that effect.

Regards, David
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 2:16 pm   #92
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

To reinforce David's comments I think it's worth repeating a quote from earlier - if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.

Stuart
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 2:57 pm   #93
dave walsh
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

That's a very clear, expert and professional analysis of safety aspects from Stuart and David. It's a complex subject for the initiated, never mind anyone merely "on the edge" of things! From what I've read, around whether Gas Boilers should be bonded, for example, there is often some confusion between plumbers and electricians. Apparently, the latter may feel that their colleagues don't always fully understand electrical regs.

Twenty years ago the house electrics at my former house were inspected by a very experienced Engineer. He was impressed by my Radiograms but said I can't sign this off, your main earth lead at the Meter is missing! I said, oh yes the electrician is coming back with some 10mm to update that re the new regulations first thing in the morning [the house was unoccupied that week].

This impressed him more! He then told me he was retiring and glad to go.
He felt somewhat jaded by an overall fall in Industry Standards [as he saw it]. This was at a time when some Utilities were combining, including electricity and water. I asked what had disillusioned him. He was a bit of an Arthur Askey type character and said [scornfully] "Well everyone knows that water and electricity don't mix!"

This kind of sums up Wavey Dipole's situation in a way. As he said "given the state of my health" in his last post, it seems unlikely that he will rush into anything "ill advised" so there is a protective element to that I suppose.

Dave W

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Old 15th Jan 2020, 3:18 pm   #94
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Hmm, an interesting question on responsibilities in your first paragraph.

If a plumber adds something to your house such as an additional radiator, which doesn't involve any electrical work, who is responsible for making sure it is correctly earthed to the latest regulations? An average homeowner would not know that bonding was needed, and so far, no electricians have been involved. Does plumbing have to be installed by "registered plumbers" who do know the electrical rules?

Stuart
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 5:39 pm   #95
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I can emphasise with the electrical engineer who Dave mentioned, who had jaded & disillusioned views on Utilities' privatisation. Me - I saw the writing on the wall, back in '98, when I was offered an early retirement package at the age of 53. I grabbed it with open hands & have thoroughly enjoyed every one of the last 21 years. However, I have kept up my MIET subscriptions, so because of that I can hardly condone any deviations from the IET Regulations.
Quite frankly, we all need to remain on the ball workshop safety-wise, considering the fact that many items of vintage radio & electronics by their vintage(sometimes very old) status, can sometimes be phooked or jolly unsafe. Hence we get great pleasure in restoring them to their former working glory.

Regards, David
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 6:38 pm   #96
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

As it's your own life and those of your family which are at stake, it's healthy to regard the wiring regs as MINIMUM standards.

Just paid my IET/CEng subs..... Ouch! they've been creeping up.

And I can assure everyone that David Simpson is thoroughly enjoying his retirement.

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Old 16th Jan 2020, 2:04 pm   #97
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Having had experience of the same damp problems, how we fixed them.
First a wooden shed, keep the outside walls well coated with preservative, seal all gaps around the door, you can only keep the shed dry not the whole of Leicestershire, then we run a small thermo-electric dehumidifier, this is ran on a timer for 8 hours a day any longer it freezes solid and stops working.

Second a brick built garage well away from the house in fact on a fact on a different street, zero chance of main power there. Outside plants and soil cleared away from walls and floor, sealed and painted the concrete floor, painted inside of the walls, all gaps around metal roof sealed with expanding foam, door sealed with weather strip all around. Big problem was the roof, in fact condensation rained down from the roof, fixed that by covering the underside of the roof with wood flooring underlay. To keep it dry 4 disposable moisture absorber are put in there during the winter and it keeps it dry, best to put each one in a gravel tray, the chemical if spilt loves to eat through steel and aluminium.
One last thing BM store and Home Bargains are worth a look for the bits.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 2:43 pm   #98
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
This kind of sums up Wavey Dipole's situation in a way. As he said "given the state of my health" in his last post, it seems unlikely that he will rush into anything "ill advised" so there is a protective element to that I suppose.

Dave W
The information here by Dave and Stuart has been very helpful and I have taken note of it. It has prompted me to do a bit of research with there being more to come. I can see where they are coming from and understand the points they are making. I am not going to rush into anything without carefully considering these safety aspects.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 3:01 pm   #99
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

While we're on the subject of "sheds" and safety earthing I asked a question recently but got no replies - while the earthing gurus are here might I take the opportunity to ask again.

I have a room above a detached double garage that I'm making warm and dry (it's already dry but not warm) for my collection and office. I am insulating it with foil backed insulation (outer layers of thick aluminium containing many layers of blown plastics and metallised film. This will be covered over with plasterboard but does it need to be earth bonded - if so what gauge of wire and how to attach it? Should the bond go to the main fuse box or can it go to a ring main earth - which is what will happen by default where it contacts conduit and back boxes.

Also there are two large exposed steel girders in the roof which are easily touched (I bump my head regularl). These appear not to be bonded - should they be? Again ideas on bond wire gauge.

As far as I can tell the earth for the garage comes via the sheath of an armoured cable from the house ca 10m away

Thanks

D
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 3:22 pm   #100
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

I've never heard of metal foil/plaster board being considered as part to of the earth bond Dominic but I'll leave it to the experts. I can't imagine it being very good for radio reception though.

SEG7's technique re garage renovation seems perfect for your needs WD!

Dave
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