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Old 12th Oct 2010, 1:07 pm   #81
kalee20
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tractorfan View Post
Before the advent of glow starters the old ones had a pair of bi-metallic contacts and a little heating element. This element was connected between the pins that are now linked.
Presumeably the heater warmed the bimetal contacts, they separated, and opening the circuit caused the tube to strike.

What strikes me though () is, firstly the heater would have to be powered all the time the light was on, to keep the starter contacts open. While only a few watts, it's inelegant. Also, what happens if the tube doesn't strike? The heater is a once-only shot - you'd have to switch off, wait a few seconds to be sure the contacts had re-closed, and switch on again. Whereas a glow switch automatically retries if the tube doesn't start.

No doubt somebody will reply saying, Exactly, and that's why glow switches took over.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 3:58 pm   #82
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Charles L. Amick of GEC, writing in the the Flourescent Lighting Manual of 1942 acknowledges thermal switch starters' small current consumption, but states that their design "ensures more positive starting by providing (1) an adequate preheating period, (2) a higher induced starting voltage, and (3) characteristics inherently less susceptible to line voltage variations."

He goes on to say that they are especially useful under adverse conditions, such as direct-current operation, and low (ambient) temperature, and refers to longer lamp life because "starting conditions are more nearly ideal". He gives the power consumption of the starters as ½W for a 40 watt type and 1½W for a 100W one.

Of interest in the same publication is the "No-blink" starter, which prevented repeated flashing of a worn out tube by combining a self latching thermal element in series with a conventional glow starter. Repeated start attempts caused heating of a bimetallic switch which eventually broke the circuit. They were re-settable by a projecting button on the top of the case.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 4:07 pm   #83
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Not to sure on this chaps but I would have thought it be something like below. It should keep trying to until the tube strikes.

Cheers
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 5:34 pm   #84
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

That's plausible, Lee-Hunts-smoothing-bomb, the heater being kept alive by the lamp current. Repeated restrike attemps would occur, albeit at a much slower rate than glow switch.

The running current being much less than the pre-heating current, is it enough to keep the contacts open? Can anyone confirm that Lee's surmised circuit is correct?
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 5:54 pm   #85
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Yes, that's exactly how it is shown, and described, in Amick's book (see post #82
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 9:19 pm   #86
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Hi,
Here's a couple of pics of the tubes I was telling you about along with a 2ft 20watt (top), a 2ft 40watt, the 15watt 18in. and the 6watt T8 . Curiously, the lamps are slightly shorter than the lengths mentioned so I'm assuming that "2ft, 18in.", etc. is the length of the fitting and not the tube.
The third pic shows some old metal cased starters with a couple of green Osram glow switch starters on SBC bases.
The fourth pics is a close up of a thermal starter which fits the ancient gear shown in pic 5. This was made by British Thompson Houston. The starter is top centre.
Cheers De Pete
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 6:17 pm   #87
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

The smallest one there looks like a T5 to me...but it's a bit hard to judge without something as a fixed reference! Nevertheless, 6W is still an odd wattage I think, with 5W and 8W being those I've come across most frequently, don't think I've ever seen a 6. Looks to be of a relatively modern design though.

Some interesting lamps there - especially that Atlas one, which looks to be a real oldie. I can't quite make out the date codes on the Philips lamps - but I should be able to decode them if you can get a closer shot of the text or write them down.
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 7:26 pm   #88
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Hi,
I'm not that familiar with the T numbers. The little one is the same diameter as those thin ones used in caravans, I think they're half inch. I hadn't seen a 6watt until I got these (I've no fittings for them), then today I spotted a box full in a local bricolage (DIY store). I've a feeling that they were used in the fire exit emergency lighting units where I worked. Oops, what a giveaway .
The Atlas lamp is the 18 incher.
Are the date codes on the Philips the pattern of dots?
Cheers de Pete

Silly me, the dots are on the Atlas tube, doh!
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Last edited by Tractorfan; 13th Oct 2010 at 7:28 pm. Reason: Don't know me dots from me date codes!
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 7:50 pm   #89
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Yep, that's a T5 6w. I've a few at work. Never seen the 5 watt though, I have seen 4 watt types, literely 4 or 5 inches long.

Does anyone else have vintage pics of lamps and fittings? Very interesting is this

Cheers
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 11:23 pm   #90
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Ack...4W is the small one I meant! F4T5! Not sure where I got 5W from.

That's what I get for typing a response right after getting in from work before my brain's had a chance to return to the land of the living!

Philips date codes are a letter and a number. i.e. K3 is September 83, K8 is August 1988. I've got a full table of the codes somewhere - will see if I can dig it out tomorrow afternoon. Need to head off for the night now though.

Last edited by Zelandeth; 13th Oct 2010 at 11:26 pm. Reason: Added date code info.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 4:44 pm   #91
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Quote:
The third pic shows some old metal cased starters with a couple of green Osram glow switch starters on SBC bases.
These are that sort of thing I mentioned earlier in this thread, wondering if they were ballasts of some sort. Mystery solved!
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 5:09 pm   #92
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

The starter in the fourth picture is the type my 5' fittings use. The round bakelite disc marked 'S' in pic. 5 shows the base of it. I have only one working example left now, the problem being that they are lit continuously when the lamp is alight, and therefore are used-up. The 4' fittings have a glow tube similar to those in fig.3, but with SES base.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 8:41 pm   #93
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Lots of Hunts pfc caps in old fluorescents...working fine!
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Old 17th Oct 2010, 12:12 am   #94
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

This is my old lead light with in-line ballast with 'protective' rubber end caps.

This has a small tube - not sure what size, though.
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Old 17th Oct 2010, 12:35 am   #95
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Oh I like that, Techman! Never seen one of those before.

Guessing that's an F8T5 tube - though it might be a 6W one as mentioned earlier in this thread - looks a bit short for an 8W...though no idea how much of the tube is covered in the fixture there.
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Old 17th Oct 2010, 10:20 am   #96
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Seeing Techman's inspection light reminded me of mine- I've never thought of it as obsolete since I've been using it regularly over the last 35 years since I found it screwed to the woodwork in the back of a scrap Minor Traveller.

I like it because the standard of construction is way better than the flimsy equivalents found in caravans today. It's just like a miniature ceiling mounted mains unit.

The electronics counts as vintage- most of the components are well obsolete. Particularly impressive (compared to modern ones) is the well heatsunk NKT404 germanium TO3 inverter transistor.

It was a bit sluggish to strike this morning, temperature in the garage was around 3C!
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Old 17th Oct 2010, 12:51 pm   #97
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

Hi,
Didn't they used to sell those as kits on the back covers of old Practical Electronics magazines?
Watch that connector, it looks very much like a French 2 pin plug & socket. It's reversible! You don't want to fry that museum piece transistor .
Cheers de Pete
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Old 17th Oct 2010, 8:09 pm   #98
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

That's an interesting snippet of information- if it was a kit it's been very well built!

Yes, that is an inline French two pin plug and socket. The method in the madness is the alternative connector (cigarette lighter plug) that I used with the lamp for camping had to be changed over polarity depending on which old car we had at the time . I got the idea from the little inline two pin reversible connectors on some types of wall wart; I probably did the replacement of the previous choc block on holiday in France.

So far so good, but I've got a few spare NKT404s about and it would probably work just as well with a MJ15025 (serious overkill ratings wise) of which I also have a "few". (Used to use them by the thousand at work about 20 years ago.)
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Old 17th Oct 2010, 9:09 pm   #99
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

For the reversible plug, it might be an idea to put a reverse polarity diode across the supply and a suitably rated fuse in line.
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Old 18th Oct 2010, 12:32 am   #100
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Default Re: Obsolete fluorescent light fittings

That would indeed be an ideal world situation.

It's not used in cigar lighter mode any more, just croc clips as shown, so the connector doesn't get disturbed---- yes, brown and blue aren't terribly easy to distinguish under sodium street lighting

Moi, I think I'll just fix it if I manage to break it ISTR it's been connected backwards a few times over the last few (many?) years- it just seems not to light but does after the observations made on the issue
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