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Old 14th Aug 2018, 8:42 pm   #41
Cobaltblue
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
I wonder if people might be thinking of resources like hifi engine or the national valve museum or pete millett's valve books or keith snook's quad stuff or any of the thousand (million ? billion ?)-and-one other free information websites put up by enthusiasts ? HiFi Engine does ask you to register, but that's all. Because they have a squillion users they end up with pretty much all the information they need.

I'd occasionally like to access a circuit from the Radio Museum. But the entry barrier is so high that I suspect I never will. Just to be clear, I'm not really angry about that. The world's direction of travel is for non-commercial information to become more and more free and that genie is well and truly out of the bottle. It's just a matter of time ...

Cheers,

GJ
If it was so freely available why did it only come from RM

Because it was available no where else for free?

The Genie is at the cork

So far not free.

Just as a matter of interest was this particular info available at the sites quoted?

Cheers

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Old 14th Aug 2018, 8:50 pm   #42
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Sorry totally disagree

The requirments are not to regulary contribute just that you do!

I have not made any new contribution in 8 months.

I have been busy.

That's made no difference to my UACS

If your a serious collector surely you must have something!

Cheers

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Old 14th Aug 2018, 9:17 pm   #43
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Sorry totally disagree

The requirements are not to regularly contribute just that you do!
...but they were at the time when I considered joining over 10 years ago, and yes I consider myself as a long standing collector having a few hundred radios, TVs, VCRs, cassette and reel to reel recorders, test equipment and calculators etc, so feel that I have something to contribute to RM.

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Old 14th Aug 2018, 9:35 pm   #44
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Why do sites like the hifi engine require membership, it is probably so that if they notice any real abuse of the free information they can take action. The "National Valve Museum" also requires membership and payment on an annual renewal basis to be able to join and support the museum and see the latest information which is on a separate website. That is how Alan finances the free service he allows the general public to use.
When you have spent hours scanning and cleaning and compiling and uploading a service document, or sorting through thousands of valve details, it is nice to think that people stop to consider the time and effort put in by so many to make this information FREE, yes it is now free also on the Radio Museum as well.

We do this as a hobby, some like to give more than others, some like to take more than others, that's OK, some have more time than others. This forum and other vintage forums have many members who give helpful advice freely.

But there are organisations and individuals who take information that is available for free and then redistribute it in their own name or even worse, in my view, sell it on for profit.

Going back to the Radio Museum, I have been looking into the issue of the Payment method of joining. If you pay the £20 fee you get 1000 points allocated to you, enough to download 66 schematic pages. It seems to me that the payment method of joining is for the freeloaders and for the commercial users who are too busy to contribute.
But lets face it if you upload one single photo of a radio in your collection (even if photos already exist on RMorg) you get 1800 credits, enough to download about 120 schematic pages or view 360 full size images.
The system has been created extremely fairly to help encourage members to continue to contribute, the main issue is getting this over to users in a way they can understand.

Ernest has tried to explain it here.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/ua...t_version.html

Mike
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:42 pm   #45
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Trying to be an honest broker here I've always been a bit baffled. The underlying issue seems to be human nature ie that some people are exploitative of honest volunteers-well yes!. People clearly work very hard and I can see that system has been designed to try and achieve maximum "fairness" although everyone has their own interpretation. The comparison with this Forum, for example, is how do you make sure that everyone gets a fair crack at things offered? Even a "hat" can be exploited.

As said, re the Museum structure, "Ernest has tried to explain it" but that indicates something in itself and quite honestly, I found it hard work.
That takes me back to what I said [innocently] in post 31, about designing Manuals. It seems counter-productive to just argue about various aspects of this clearly valuable resource when there seems to be an overall gap in communication. There's no point in just saying if you don't like it, don't get involved as that will reduce input further but it's an understandable response when people get frustrated. I've even seen it on here believe it or not
I'm sure a lot of this can be sorted out to the overall good but don't look at me with my "Magpie Brain" as one teacher once said

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Old 14th Aug 2018, 11:21 pm   #46
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
If it was so freely available why did it only come from RM

Because it was available no where else for free?

The Genie is at the cork

So far not free.

Just as a matter of interest was this particular info available at the sites quoted?
Honestly Mike I don't remember where I found it. I tried the RM site first because a Google search put it up first. When I found that that was a restricted site I just worked my way down the Google list until I came across what I was after on one of the unrestricted ones. It was a vintage hi-fi amp, so it might well not have been on one of the sites that I listed. In the end I had the physical amp itself. I could have traced its circuit through myself if I'd had to. To be frank if I'd done that then I'd much rather have posted it to an open site like HiFi Engine, where everyone could have benefited from my efforts, than to have kept it to a privileged few.

The fact is that these days free online sites are the general rule. Very few indeed are still limited-access. It's the way of the modern world I'm afraid.

Paul's CDs are different. They're not a website but a 'for sale' item, which is fine. And I'll resist your encouragement to 'just try' reposting stuff from there. That would be dishonest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by reelguy View Post
... I'm pleased I am not the only one to have problems with it ...
Join, From your forum posts you have a lot to contribute.

Yes its not always easy but is anything worthwhile so easy?

It depends if you want to be a net contibutor or a net receiver ...
This is the downside to restricting access - the site denies itself the contributions that the non-members might have made. I can't be sure of course, but I fear that for everyone like Peter who mentions that he hasn't joined there are tens more who also haven't but have just kept quiet about it. That's everyone's loss, I'm afraid.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 9:08 am   #47
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

We all want the Radio Museum to give an accurate record of all the radios that were made worldwide.
But there seems to be a feeling by some on here that anyone should be able to contribute what ever they want and however they want, pictures in any format they choose, schematics could end up in all sorts of cad formats.
Rules have been set the same as on this forum, file sizes and image dimensions are very generous to give the viewer the best quality yet maintain some control on server space used.
The site is very structured and is complicated, it is massive, it has to be to cater for the variation in the types of stuff on there and the range of services available. I think this is what people are referring to by saying it is too complicated. It has been designed very cleverly with a lot of thought quite some time ago, but it has also had to be jigged around to cater for unexpected issues and different types of equipment as time went by.
Even some valve types have to be spelled correctly with upper and lower case letters because the site has to cater for and differentiate Russian types with their strange letters.
If it was a "free for all" there would be no way of contacting people who kept uploading models incorrectly.
Remember also when you upload a photo of a radio or other item in your collection you automatically get your own web page displaying all the models at a glance which you have added photos for.
Without joining and registering your details and logging in this would not be possible to control.
Its the same as this forum, or any forum, who in their right mind allows anyone to contribute to a facility on the internet without first registering, not many I bet.
Hopefully we have now fully understood the issue with the payment method of joining and the requirement to still contribute a little, (and I stress a LITTLE) and the requirement for rules and standards.
There is obviously a lot of interest here in the Radio Museum, lets hope a few more of you can help to improve its range of radio models.
Ask me if you have any difficulty or find something obviously wrong. Mistakes can happen, the people who run Rmorg are I believe all unpaid volunteers, and administrators like myself are not expert in everything, they do their best to maintain this worthwhile resource for all to use.
Rmorg is in no way run as a profit organisation, it is a special Foundation formed so that it can continue to survive its original creator and financial benefactor Ernest Erb. More on this can be seen here. https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/ra...oundation.html

Mike

Last edited by crackle; 15th Aug 2018 at 9:15 am.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 12:33 pm   #48
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

This is not a comment on The Radio Museum but just a general query regarding copyright. Clearly the copyright on original material added to the museum should be protected. I don't understand how anyone, with respect Paul and The Radio Museum included, can claim copyright on material such as "Trader" sheets? I own a folder full of original period Trader sheets but I certainly can't claim copyright if I make a copy available to someone else. All over the net there are Trader sheets with copyright to someone overprinted on to them. Who does own the copyright to this material? Just wondering..........
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 12:45 pm   #49
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

After all these years I doubt any publisher or radio manufacturer is going to claim copyright of vintage radio service sheets.

I look at it like this though. If I were to go to the trouble of obtaining loads of service sheets, scanning them, converting them to pdf documents, compiling an index and burning the lot to a DVD, I wouldn't be happy about someone selling those same scans on eBay or elsewhere.

I guess this is one thing that RM and The Royal Signals website are trying to stop, but in doing so they can make things very difficult for the genuine collector/repairer/restorer. I'd happily pay for some service info if this option were available.

My main interest is in military and amateur radio stuff and test gear. Therefore I frequently download from the BAMA (Boat Anchor) site. My conscience is clear though as I've also submitted stuff for inclusion there.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 1:49 pm   #50
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

As long as nobody is likely to lay claim to copyright, I personally see no problem with material being freely distributed. Paul and others provide a very valuable service in collating this information and making it easily and quickly accessible, which quite rightly justifies a fee, but if anyone prefers to scour the Internet or elsewhere for the same, that's their choice. In practice, collections such as Paul's usually work out cheaper in the end if one requires more than one or two items.
I don't understand how restricting distribution helps - surely if something is difficult to obtain it's more likely to command an unreasonable price than if it's readily available. As always, caveat emptor: if someone decides to pay over the odds for something they could have had cheaply or free of charge, that's their decision.
I wouldn't buy a copy of a manual on eBay if, for instance, I can download it free from Hi-Fi Engine, but I'm not going to stop someone else doing so if they wish. If someone makes some money as a result, why not? On the other hand, if someone were to publish a DVD collection of, say, obscure semiconductor datasheets, I'd consider buying it, as it would save me hours of searching.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 4:49 pm   #51
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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After all these years I doubt any publisher or radio manufacturer is going to claim copyright of vintage radio service sheets.
I agree, and it is very useful to have access to these things on a CD or DVD as offered by Paul on this site. I would be miffed if I had gone to all that trouble only to find someone cloning and selling the discs.

I was simply trying to understand how anyone can claim copyright on Trader or manufacturers service sheets? I understand a charge being made to duplicate and supply data sheets but surely the purchaser should be free to give copies away if he/she wishes without infringing copyright?
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 4:56 pm   #52
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Beyond what's legally enforceable [I suspect not that much overall] it does comes down to human nature and different attitudes in the end. All the viewpoints have merit but the Law is really a blunt instrument when it comes to relationships and creative "property" unlike say, contracts or finance. As with divorce, sometimes there's a generosity of spirit, more often there's not!

I'm reminded of the furore over music down loads for free and the use of extracts from other peoples work which appears to have reached some sort of a resolution within the Music Industry. It just had to change in the face of the inevitable ie the Internet. The focus is now on the live performance experience again not buying the product, although many people still do as a gesture of support even when it's available free-"go figure" as Americans say .

Dave W
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 8:04 pm   #53
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

I am sorry to say I have to disagree with so many fellow forum members about RM

Maybe I didn't make it clear both myself and Crackle have tried politely to make everyone understand the nature of RM

RM is not really interested in people joining paying a fee and thinking that's it we have access can download whatever we want.

RM is about promoting our hobby and expanding the database providing a service to everyone interested in our hobby.

A few pictures a tiny bit of effort gains you riches. Paying just gets you in.

It takes around 1 hour to scan, clean up, edit and upload a manufactures service sheet about 2 thirds that for a trader sheet or RTV servicing book. entry. Yet someone expects to download that in few seconds and share it with someone too lazy to even to do a google search?

You can take a few picture in minutes, crop edit upload using the required format 15 minutes tops. To get hundreds of images and circuits seems like a great deal to me !

If you want to know how much effort some contributers to RM have made check out Howard Cravern and Keith Stains.

Yes its not perfect, nothing is but those who care about RM try to make it accurate a fix the little annoyances.

If you are a serious collector and don't mind a bit of work to promote our hobby and improve RM become a member. Beleive me if your serious it is worth the effort.

Before I became a member I like many found RM a bit archaic, strange even obstructive. But like many before me I persisted because I though this matters to me, and it does matter to me

The first set in my collection ignoring the stuff I did breaking fixing etc I still have and it joined me in 1974 its a metal cased 2 valve manufactured maker unknow date probably 1926 to 1928 (2 mullard Triodes).

By the time I joined the BVWS in the mid 80's I already had more than 50 pre war sets. Now its probably nearer 500

I still work full time and have a busy life yet I try to make time to foward the cause, including this forum.

I saw a comment I have a set of RTV books thats all I need.

Not if you collect pre war sets

I am trying not to have a go here at any particular section of what after all is a broad community. But every item on the internet required someone to do some work for free.

Time for the Freeloaders to put something back

Please stop knocking RM join and improve it.

Cheers

Mike T
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 8:35 pm   #54
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
I am sorry to say I have to disagree with so many fellow forum members about RM

Maybe I didn't make it clear both myself and Crackle have tried politely to make everyone understand the nature of RM.............

Yes its not perfect, nothing is but those who care about RM try to make it accurate and fix the little annoyances.

Before I became a member I like many found RM a bit archaic, strange even obstructive. But like many before me I persisted because I though this matters to me, and it does matter to me ."......................

Time for the Freeloaders to put something back

Please stop knocking RM join and improve it.
Knocking isn't what I perceive. From this thread, I see a consensus that admires and values the remarkable RM site, but also a number of members still at the stage that you were Mike when you found RM 'a bit archaic, strange, even obstructive'. We need to overcome that issue.

For example, if duplication isn't a problem, I for one have a number of pictures and also many corrections and suggestions for improvement, but my perception is of a rather 'spiky' formally structured website approach that deters me from interacting just in case I get something wrong and suffer a 'punishment'. I'm sure, however, that this perception is little more than a clash of the rather formal original culture of the site and our more relaxed freewheeling British style.

Maybe we need an 'RM for Dummies' publication to help us get into its language and style!

Martin
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 9:01 pm   #55
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Hi Martin

I cannot see a time when RM has a laid back English style

After all its a Swiss website

I needed to change not RM, after all why would RM change when it works so well worldwide.

However as my status is limbo because I have been a bit busy rebuilding my home if you PM Crackle he will do his best to assist you.

I get stuff wrong all the time never been punished, I just get a polite Email helping me to get it right.

This is not as draconian as it might appear there no two headed monsters sometimes English is not the moderators first language. If like me you have spent 25 years working overseas you don't get the hump due to poor interpretation.

RM is always on the lookout for UK collectors with extensive knowledge to help resolve moderation. At the moment Crackle is pretty much doing all the UK moderation by himself.

RM for dummies might be a good idea

Cheers

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Old 15th Aug 2018, 9:42 pm   #56
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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... I needed to change not RM, after all why would RM change when it works so well woldwide ...
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Mike. It is what it is. It suits some people and not others.

A few of 'the others' are a little sad/frustrated that it doesn't do what they want but most, like me, are OK with that. We don't feel any need to change because we've got the whole of the rest of the unrestricted internet.

Likewise, as you say, RM doesn't want to change either. If the choice is between drawing in the other people and 'working so well worldwide' then it would sooner do the latter. So be it.

I think we shouldn't get too judgemental though. Perhaps the people who are prepared to give an occasional thing away to absolutely everyone, requiring nothing at all in return, deserve a bit of credit too ? Dividing the world into 'givers' and 'takers' can be a bit of an oversimplification.

Cheers,

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Old 15th Aug 2018, 10:10 pm   #57
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

I think the phrase 'freeloader' being bandied is very broad brush and negative towards at least three people in this thread who have said they have gained membership by that option including myself. When I did so I thought it provided RM with some direct finance which I was sure would be welcomed as well as speeding up my membership application.

All my, in fact my sole, issue was is getting charged, in the RM sense, for viewing something rather than downloading it to hard drive for use at a later date. I've only ever actually downloaded six or seven pages of a German radio manual. Hence my point about not wanting to log in even though my Q ratio, as it's called, is quite low (low is good) with the photos I've uploaded in the past.

Like a lot of sites, RM is what it is and I don't find the sites workings too bad at all actually and, as I said above, it is really a tremendous resource.

Andrew
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 10:21 pm   #58
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
I think we shouldn't get too judgemental though. Perhaps the people who are prepared to give an occasional thing away to absolutely everyone, requiring nothing at all in return, deserve a bit of credit too ? Dividing the world into 'givers' and 'takers' can be a bit of an oversimplification.
Hi Graham

And these people give things away where exactly

Is it someone elses work they are happy to give away?

Like Crackle http://kbmuseum.org.uk/

Like me http://www.cossor.co.uk/

I accept there are people on this forum in particular who who give original content for free.

How much content for free ..........

How much credit?

Come on its a lot of work to put up a web site and make original content.

I had to scan edit original 1930's documents for my web site it would not be fair to use Pauls already scanned and edited sheets tempting as it was.

hundreds of hours.

I think givers and takers is a pretty safe bet.

Show me the giving of original content not just linked to someone else.

I am sure there are a few and my hat is off to them.

Cheers

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Old 15th Aug 2018, 10:38 pm   #59
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
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.
And these people give things away where exactly

Is it someone elses work they are happy to give away?

I accept there are people on this forum in particular who who give original content for free.

How much content for free ..........

How much credit?

Show me the giving of original content not just linked to someone else.

I am sure there are a few and my hat is off to them.

Cheers

Mike T

How about this then:-

I produced the circuit diagrams shown here by reverse engineering the equipment. Not the best quality perhaps, but better than nothing and I'm happy that they're freely available.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/magneta_model_d.html
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 10:40 pm   #60
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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I think the phrase 'freeloader' being bandied is very broad brush and negative towards at least three people in this thread who have said they have gained membership by that option including myself. When I did so I thought it provided RM with some direct finance which I was sure would be welcomed as well as speeding up my membership application.
I am sorry that you have been caught out this way.

You have been caught out by misunderstanding what RM is about.

They are really not interested in your funds, just content.

The idea of a quick start guide to RM is a good one.

If you have paid then clearly freeloader cannot apply.

Surely you must be able to contribute pictures or something

Once you do your membership will be transformed.

Yes it's frustrating at first.

Stick with it feel good like I do everytime I make a new entry.

Need help PM myself or Crackle.

Cheers

Mike T
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