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Old 10th Apr 2018, 2:18 pm   #21
red16v
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

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Originally Posted by Phil G4SPZ View Post
I'm delighted to see so many Gent master clocks enjoying second leases of life in the hands of enthusiasts. These were in common use in virtually every hospital at one time. I think their use in that sector declined largely because of cost, particularly having to reconfigure the remote wiring whenever building alterations were taking place (which was all the time). I remember them quite fondly from my 30 years in the NHS and don't recall one ever going wrong.
We used a Gents master clock system where I worked - LWT on the SouthBank. The clocks were in the basement where the temperature was more even. I think it gave out bi-phase pulses every other second? Ring any bells? Was a nice little earner for someone when the clocks changed twice a year!
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 5:50 pm   #22
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

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My one is mechanical with the electrical wind and spring reserve . Slaves are controlled buy its internal power supply switched by 2 mercury switches.
it's A Chronopher XC407
If it is the motor wound with spring reserve, it is the XC406, the XC407 is the later model with a transistor controlled pendulum (ATO) type setup with relays etc. and there was also a later model still, the XC408 which had the case turned through 90deg and was a fully electronic quartz controlled master clock.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 5:54 pm   #23
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That's the one, a Chronopher XC407.
Mine has a known problem, there is what is effectively a differential gear in the mechanism to drive the electrical output to the slaves which suffers from wear, the result being spurious outputs and the slaves race ahead!
Hopefully yours doesn't have this problem.
Yes, the diffs do wear, but when mine started running ahead, it turned out the arresting catch had become rounded and was being pushed out of the way rather than stopping the gear train, I just re-dressed it and it was fine after that, might be worth a look.

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Old 10th Apr 2018, 6:55 pm   #24
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

OK, I think you're right, the XC406 is the one with a mechanical movement and the XC407 is the transistor controlled pendulum.
It's a good while since I looked at my XC406, I concluded I needed some sort of test stand so it could run on the bench with access all round, so joined the 'round tuit' pile...........
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 2:24 am   #25
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

I can see these clocks being very addictive.
Can anyone tell me the best oil to use for servicing? I see loads online but what do others use?
Andy
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 8:26 am   #26
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I use a clock oil bought from Meadows and Passmore many years ago.
Andy
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 11:29 am   #27
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

I don't have a Gent's but I do have a TMC, a Synchronome ans a Magneta. Regretfully no slaves now. For lubrication we used Cronax type D as far as I remember but I've not seen any reference to this anywhere.
Does anyone remember the TMC "SPB" (Short Pedulum Bob)? As the description the pendulum was only about 12" long.
The long pendulum clocks were rarely stripped down fully as this would be followed by several visits to regulate the system. We just removed the 15 tooth wheel on a service and cleaned out the holes with a cocktail stick and put a minimum amount of oil in the wells.
Is it possible to make a pendulum for the Gent's?
Don
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 11:44 am   #28
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

One of the difficulties with making an accurate replica of a Gents Pulsynetic pendulum is that the flat strip of metal for the rod should be made of Invar, and I don't think there is a source any more. It is available in round rod suitable for a Synchronome pendulum.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 2:54 pm   #29
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

I understand but does it need to be made out of invar to get a clock working? Of course you may not get the accuracy but would it be that bad?
Don
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 4:12 pm   #30
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

No, anything will do to get the clock working! I imagine in a modern house with the temperature fairly constant it isn't too critical.
I believe varnished wood is much better than 'ordinary metal' regarding temperature stability for an uncompensated pendulum.
Andy
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 2:43 am   #31
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

Some realy usfull information here thanks. I didn't realise there was so much interest in these clocks.i take it there probably a few still working in there original inviroment as my 1930s clock was only taken out of service is 2012
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 9:30 am   #32
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I get the impression that where there are still some clock systems surviving in their original environment it is because an enthusiastic individual has volunteered to keep the system going, largely at his own expense, certainly in time.
As a result the continued survival of these systems is rather fragile. As soon as that support isn't available the owner will take the easiest and cheapest way out, which is to install a bunch of quartz clocks instead.
I went on a fantastic guided tour of the clock systems at the Co-operative Society's headquarters in Manchester, it must be 15 years ago now, arranged by the AHS Electrical Clocks Group. They had (and I hope still have) an IBM system and a Gents system. Both systems had to an extent been taken out of use, but were being lovingly maintained and re-extended by just such an enthusiast who was our guide on the day. What will happen when he is no longer available?

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Old 12th Apr 2018, 11:32 am   #33
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

They'll go in the skip! I'm closely related to someone who works for the coop bank, but there's next to no chance they'll find out and drag me out some more IBM slaves when it happens.

At my place of part-time employment - a university - the idea that it mattered what time it was went out the window more than 30 years ago, which is why I have my ITR / IBM system to play with. Lectures end at an xx:50-ish, and students (and even the lecturer) might turn up somewhere else around xy:00. It works well enough, I guess, though the computer room allocation system doesn't and they might end up in different rooms without enough seats! In exams, it's a case of 'note what the crappy quartz thing nearest you says when the examiner says "go" if you can't see the one at the front that he's looking at. Try to make sure the one near you is actually moving, sometime in the first few minutes of the exam.'
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 10:10 pm   #34
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Inspired by this thread, I may have sorted out my ITR slaves - we'll see how it goes through the night! I won't hijack the thread with lots of detail as it's a different system, but if I may I'll mention something rather odd - at the hour (or rather at xx:59:20) the thing reverses polarity to the slaves. At the same time a switch in the slaves pulls in a diode, so the slave doesn't react to what happens next - which is that the master pulses everything one second on, one second off, 17 times. At xx:59:54 the polarity swaps back, and a couple of seconds later the normal once-per minute pulse occurs which moves the slaves on by one minute.

I wonder what this was - some kind of facility for a pulsed bell to be rung on the hour, perhaps? Rather a lot of dings - perhaps something is still out of whack.

I have a 240v Klaxon. Perhaps I might set it up under the missus' bed one night on a 24v relay, if she gives me too much grief
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 10:28 pm   #35
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

Didn't the ITR system have some kind of sync. facility whereby all slaves were re-set to o'clock so that any that had slipped out-of-sync were back on-track again?
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 11:04 pm   #36
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

aaaahhhh - that'd do it. Yes, any slow ones (up to 17 minutes slow!) would come around until the pip on the wheel in the slave 'at the hour' lifted its switch and stopped it advancing. This suggests the slaves had a problem going slow, and not fast - because any which had jumped ahead (switch bounce?) would, by the end of the correction period, be at least 18 minutes fast, and after 4 hours, would read a whole hour fast!

The one-second-on, one second off pulse is also how it deals with mains failure, where the master carries on with spring-power but all the slaves stop. A cam records how far out of sync master and slaves are, and when power is restored (within a couple of hours, which is all the spring gives you) the slaves all bonk their way around to catch up. Re-setting the clocks in autumn, which also puts master and slaves out of sync, makes a hell of a row for ages
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 9:31 am   #37
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

One again, the interest in this thread reinforces my view that we should have a Forum Section devoted to Electrical Timekeeping!
I'm not aware of any other forum covering this subject, noting that most people interested in mechanical clocks tend to disparage electric clocks, so general clock forums are not the place to go.
There is much more commonality/synergy between radio and electric clocks than between mechanical clocks and electrical clocks.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 9:09 pm   #38
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

Despite the undoubted interest in industrial and commercial master-slave clock systems, they are a rather specialist niche and push the boundaries of the 'Other Vintage Household Electrical or Electromechanical Items' a bit far. Rather than creating another section on the UKVRRR Forum as Andy suggests, perhaps the devotees of such systems could consider establishing a new independent forum covering the topic?

I personally am interested mainly in mechanical clocks, with electric clocks being a recent interesting diversion, and I've appreciated being able to ask questions and discuss domestic electric clocks with knowledgeable people within this section of the Forum. It's true that there aren't any proper clock forums in the UK, at least none that I've managed to find, so perhaps there's a wider demand out there that is waiting to be met!

I did chuckle at Andy's comment that "most people interested in mechanical clocks tend to disparage electric clocks", and I also have no doubt that most people who are interested in electric clocks tend to disparage quartz clocks. The same attitude can be found in the valve versus transistor radio camps, or even the steam versus diesel factions within the heritage railway movement. I wish it weren't so; surely, vintage technology of every sort is worthy of note, study and preservation.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 9:29 pm   #39
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

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Originally Posted by M0FYA Andy View Post
One again, the interest in this thread reinforces my view that we should have a Forum Section devoted to Electrical Timekeeping!
I'm not aware of any other forum covering this subject, noting that most people interested in mechanical clocks tend to disparage electric clocks, so general clock forums are not the place to go.
There is much more commonality/synergy between radio and electric clocks than between mechanical clocks and electrical clocks.
Andy
I would like to see an Electrical Timekeeping section too
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 9:37 pm   #40
M0FYA Andy
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Default Re: Gents Master Clocks advice

Phil,
No, I don't think an independent forum would work, for the very reason you mention - it is a rather specialist niche. It wouldn't have the 'critical mass' to be sustainable. There are two Yahoo Groups dedicated to the subject, one open to all and another by invitation, not anything like as good a format as this forum, but even they have struggled for content of late.

I also think there is a lot of synergy between the subjects of vintage radio technology and vintage electric timekeeping, to put it another way the sum is greater than the two subjects treated independently, but I acknowledge that is just my personal view.

I don't think those interested in vintage electric clocks disparage quartz clocks, they are simply the current technology. But what I do dislike is vintage technology being replaced by modern for the wrong reasons!

I totally agree that 'vintage technology of every sort is worthy of note, study and preservation'.

Andy
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