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Old 5th Dec 2018, 2:53 pm   #1
ShaunPJarvis
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Default Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

I'm new here. Thank you for letting me in. I'm not bright. That's obvious to me now as well as the fact that I only learn if taught a certain way. So be it and to the point. I have attached a pic of the back of my amplifier. I have attached a dbx manual. I wish, if it is possible, to record to tape having processed the signal through both the dbx for noise and an equalizer to ensure as best I can that playback is standardised. At the same time I want to be able to use the dbx for tape playback (one has to) and the equalizer when playing anything, i.e. TV sound, wireless music player, CD player. Not sure if this can achieved at all? Assuming, nay hoping, that someone can explain the connecting in a way coherent to myself I would also like to know exactly what the preamp part of my amp. is for and how it is used.

Without the knowledge - I write the following to provide and insight in to just how little I understand this - I assume that the bridge is there because the preamp amplified signal coming out is sent via the bridge to the main amp? I am also supposing that whatever signal is fed in to the amp. (tape, tuner, aux, CD & phono) is amplified by the preamp? While how it all works may be obvious to you I am not confident on my own analysis because I have had it suggested that the only amplified signal coming from 'pre out' is the phono signal, which would dash my assumption that every input is preamp amplified. The question then is why is the preamp section at the rear of the amp. there at all?

So gentlemen and ladies the questions are:-
1. Can everything be connected in such a way that the dbx is used for both inputting and the outputted signal from the R to R?
2. be connected in such a way that the equalizer is used both for both recording and for playing anything inputted to the amp?
3. How is the preamp section on the back of the amp. used/work/for?

Many thanks in advance for those of you that know and are willing to help.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 3:18 pm   #2
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

The sockets you mention are simply the outputs of the preamplifiers and the inputs of the power amplifiers. With the links in place, the preamps and power amps are connected together as if no external sockets were provided.

The main purpose of these sockets is to allow the preamps to be used with external better power amps, or external preamps to be used with the internal power amps. Some people also used them to connect a graphic equaliser in the signal path.

I don't think you can use these sockets to connect a DBX processor, as it would have no effect when recording, but I have no experience of doing this.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 3:52 pm   #3
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

In a normal setup there would be a pair of screened cables carrying the signal being recorded from the "Tape Out" sockets on the preamp to the recording inputs of the tape machine.

Similarly the replay outputs of the tape machine would go by another pair of screened cables to the "Tape In" sockets on the preamp.

Adding a DBX processor amounts to simply diverting these signals via the DBX box.

so "Tape out" to DBX then DBX to tape machine recording inputs, and Tape machine play outputs to DBX and DBX to "Tape in"

Those links stay where they are.

I've never done this. I've never felt DBX necessary. It reduces noise a bit, but it exaggerates imperfections in frequency resoponse and you can hear it 'breathing'

Try it for yourself and form your own opinion, but don't do anything you can't reverse if it doesn't suit you.

DBX never caught on and there are two reasons.... it isn't a panacea and it didn't come built in to tape machines.

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Old 6th Dec 2018, 6:35 pm   #4
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
DBX never caught on and there are two reasons.... it isn't a panacea and it didn't come built in to tape machines.
...apart from absolutely loads from Technics and quite a few more from Akai, and those are just the ones I know about and see regularly. Any Technics cassette deck whose model number ends with an 'x' has dBX built in.

In practice it works very well, although it is better with continuous high level material (e.g. pop) than with stuff with long quiet passages (classical). This is the case for any 'high gain' NR system, e.g. ADRES (Toshiba / Aurex), HiCOM (Telefunken), Super ANRS (Victor) and is not a problem unique to dBX. As well as being a sliding filter like Dolby B, it also compresses the whole signal above a certain level. This is then uncompressed on playback, but there is another level higher still which is compressed during recording and not re-expanded on playback. This makes it practically impossible to overload the tape, which is a fine feature for the non-technical user

Matsushita did a lot of work on dBX and their later IC-based processors work superbly. I've done demonstrations using a carefully set up but otherwise completely standard Technics RS-M253X and normal TDK SA stock, the results were stunning. With CD as a source, absolute silence between tracks and bright, vibrant treble. You really couldn't hear the difference, even at high listening levels.

The trouble is it all came too late, Dolby B was too entrenched. Even Dolby's other systems couldn't shift it, 'C' and 'S' remained as niche interests despite some interesting technology.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 8:25 pm   #5
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

Aggressive analogue companding is always going to produce audible effects, because it isn't predictive. Obviously, some implementations are better than others, but the reason Dolby B was so successful and long lasting was that it provided a significant benefit without trying to do too much.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 8:49 pm   #6
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

The original poster may like what DBX does, or he may not. He won't find out until he connects it up and tries it.

The sheer number of tape machines sold with Dolby B, or with no noise reduction does render the others quite small minorities.

I bought a cassette machine with Super ANRS and found it OK, though I could hear some artefacts. For my open reel machine I have a Revox A77 without noise reduction in preference to the version with Dolby B, Yes, the Dolby B gave a quieter background, but I didn't like what else it did to the sound, but I was being a lot more critical than I was with the cassette deck.

I still think the best advice to Shaun is to try it and make his own decision whether to stay with it, but not to do anything irreversible.

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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:53 pm   #7
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

To each his own, of course, but I wouldn't give dbX house room. Well, I do to the extent of two K-9 modules which fit in place of Dolby CAT-22s (geddit?) when I need to replay an incoming dbX tape.

Quite apart from the audible noise modulation on bass guitars and pianos, the stereo image wander is disturbing, A long time ago now, I was preparing a digital dub of a dbX tape which I was due to take into an editing suite the following day to make a CD master. The image instability was so disturbing I pulled the session before consulting the man I know who knew all about dbX - he had been chief engineer at a well known studio which used it throughout. When I related my tale, he just said "but it always does that!". Session reconfirmed, nose held, master produced. Client happy.

Mind you, I didn't get on with Dolby C either. For all its ingenuity, it just seemed to demand too much of the line-up accuracy of the machine it was working with to be able to cover its tracks.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 3:51 am   #8
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

The DBX processor probably will already be designed to connect between the tape sockets on the amplifier and the corresponding sockets of the tape deck that would have used to have connected to the amplifier. When not in use, the tape deck will be connected directly to the amplifier. When in use, it will send DBX-encoded audio from the amplifier to the tape deck inputs, and return decoded audio to the amplifier inputs.

An equaliser can be connected between the "pre out" and "power in" sockets in place of the wire links (be sure to keep them safe, just in case .....). It will not affect recordings on the tape deck, but will affect whatever source is being played through the amplifier. Again it might be designed to connect between an amplifier and a tape deck; but you can ignore the "tape monitor" button and the tape deck connections. There should be diagrams in the user's manual showing both connection schemes (via tape sockets, or between a pre-amplifier and a power amplifier. These may be shown as separate items; but although in your case they are in the same box, the only connection between them is those wire links.)

If you can post pictures of the equaliser and DBX processor (front panel switches and rear panel sockets) we can advise further.

EDIT: Ah. I've just seen the DBX processor pic. What you meed to do is this. Wiire the DBX processor between the amplifier and tape deck: left and right record outputs on amplifier to record inputs on DBX processor, record outputs on DBX processor to line inputs of tape deck, line outputs of tape deck to playback inputs of DBX processor and playback outputs of DBX processor to tape playback inputs of amplifier. Then wire the left and right preamplifier outputs to the equaliser inputs, and the left and right equaliser inputs to the power amplifier inputs. The amplifier's tone controls should be left at neutral, and all adjustments done using the equaliser. The tape sockets on the equaliser can be ignored; leave the tape monitor switch off at all times. (Or of course you could connect another tape deck to it; but that deck would not be able to benefit from the DBX processor.)
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 4:59 am   #9
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

Hi, can I just say re the graphic EQ connection. If you have a domestic hi fi eq with a tape monitor switch, then it is not suitable for connection between the pre and power sections. Anything coming out of the eq would not be controlled by the volume control on the amp as the main amp in sockets go straight to the power amp.

To do what I think you're asking, you would connect the EQ to the tape in / out on the amp, and then connect the DBX unit to the graphic tape monitor and record outputs, and then from the DBX in outs to the tape deck.
When you want to listen to any other source connected to the amp through the EQ, you leave the amp's tape monitor selected and set the EQ's monitor switch to off.

If on the other hand you have a professional type eq with just an eq and bypass switch, then it is suitable for the pre power connections but you wouldn't have the ability to EQ recordings and control playback volume.

In a nut shell, if the graphic has 4 pairs of sockets (or more) it goes to the tape sockets on the amp.

One last thing, the tone controls on the amp do not alter the record output,this comes before the tone circuit.

David.

Last edited by teetoon; 7th Dec 2018 at 5:17 am.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 7:30 am   #10
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

"I'm new here. Thank you for letting me in. I'm not bright" Welcome to the forum Shaun and don't knock yourself, in life there will plenty of folk who'll do that for you and audio takes some getting your head round, it can be complicated and counter intuitive and badly written user manual's don't help. We've all struggled and I for one still do.

Other's have covered everything pretty much, but -

1) Yes, it has to. The DBX processess the signal going into the tape, then reads the tape so it can be played. It's a bit like a spy sending a message, spy puts plain test into code (DBX in), sends to spy boss (R2R) who gets a minion (DBX out) to decode the message back into plain text.

2&3) covered above in other responses.

Not sure about your DBX box, but some have to be switched manually and some can do it remotely.

Andy.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 1:09 pm   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
The sockets you mention are simply the outputs of the preamplifiers and the inputs of the power amplifiers. With the links in place, the preamps and power amps are connected together as if no external sockets were provided.

The main purpose of these sockets is to allow the preamps to be used with external better power amps, or external preamps to be used with the internal power amps. Some people also used them to connect a graphic equaliser in the signal path.

I don't think you can use these sockets to connect a DBX processor, as it would have no effect when recording, but I have no experience of doing this.
Thank you. There are others to read but unless I have missed it, any inputted signal through any of the H5 inputs will have been amplified through that internal preamp? I'm guess the phono input has been amplified to a greater extent? What input could be substituted for phono or another way, what else would have an acceptable input value for the phono inputs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
In a normal setup there would be a pair of screened cables carrying the signal being recorded from the "Tape Out" sockets on the preamp to the recording inputs of the tape machine.

Similarly the replay outputs of the tape machine would go by another pair of screened cables to the "Tape In" sockets on the preamp.

Adding a DBX processor amounts to simply diverting these signals via the DBX box.

so "Tape out" to DBX then DBX to tape machine recording inputs, and Tape machine play outputs to DBX and DBX to "Tape in"

Those links stay where they are.

I've never done this. I've never felt DBX necessary. It reduces noise a bit, but it exaggerates imperfections in frequency resoponse and you can hear it 'breathing'

Try it for yourself and form your own opinion, but don't do anything you can't reverse if it doesn't suit you.

DBX never caught on and there are two reasons.... it isn't a panacea and it didn't come built in to tape machines.

David
Thank you David. I only bought the dbx (128) because I read the exact opposite, which gives good value to your inevitable suggestion to suck it and see. How about the graphic equalizer for both the recording signal but available for playback of say, wireless music player inputs in to the amplifier (you know how awful some of those compressed signals are)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio263 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
DBX never caught on and there are two reasons.... it isn't a panacea and it didn't come built in to tape machines.
...apart from absolutely loads from Technics and quite a few more from Akai, and those are just the ones I know about and see regularly. Any Technics cassette deck whose model number ends with an 'x' has dBX built in.

In practice it works very well, although it is better with continuous high level material (e.g. pop) than with stuff with long quiet passages (classical). This is the case for any 'high gain' NR system, e.g. ADRES (Toshiba / Aurex), HiCOM (Telefunken), Super ANRS (Victor) and is not a problem unique to dBX. As well as being a sliding filter like Dolby B, it also compresses the whole signal above a certain level. This is then uncompressed on playback, but there is another level higher still which is compressed during recording and not re-expanded on playback. This makes it practically impossible to overload the tape, which is a fine feature for the non-technical user

Matsushita did a lot of work on dBX and their later IC-based processors work superbly. I've done demonstrations using a carefully set up but otherwise completely standard Technics RS-M253X and normal TDK SA stock, the results were stunning. With CD as a source, absolute silence between tracks and bright, vibrant treble. You really couldn't hear the difference, even at high listening levels.

The trouble is it all came too late, Dolby B was too entrenched. Even Dolby's other systems couldn't shift it, 'C' and 'S' remained as niche interests despite some interesting technology.
Radio Wrangler, Thank you for your input. Positive stuff and as another contributor wrote, 'try it', I will. My main concern and now that a moderator has answered the question, is whether it is possible to connect everything in such a way that the equalizer is used for the tape recording signal and still conveniently available for all playbacks (e.g. wireless music playing through the amp. - I use the Denon 200WS -) including perhaps the tape output signal where I may need to fiddle about a bit.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 3:51 pm   #12
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

You don't really want to have the equaliser in the recording path. Its main purpose is to correct for the acoustics of the listening room. It only needs to be used during playback. If you record an "equalised" signal, it will just sound wrong if you listen to it anywhere else, or with the equaliser controls set to anything but neutral.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:09 am   #13
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Before I respond further (with an idea), thank you community for this fantastic input. Seriously appreciated. The one question I need answered before I can make further comment is, is the tape out output on my amp (Revox H5) not preamped but direct from an input be it radio, whatever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by julie_m View Post
You don't really want to have the equaliser in the recording path. Its main purpose is to correct for the acoustics of the listening room. It only needs to be used during playback. If you record an "equalised" signal, it will just sound wrong if you listen to it anywhere else, or with the equaliser controls set to anything but neutral.
Julie, Thanks again. Still thinking here. Busy weekend in preparation of sailing. But … I appreciate what you said here but a lot of the music I have in digital form is really badly recorded so the idea of using an equalizer is to make tapes where both the playback volume and range is at least similar. One of the reasons for this is my wife sees cables and indeed, the equipment, as an affront to good order, taste, design if you will. Hence the use of Denon's range of HiFi transmitters and receivers about the place along with a Denon WS200 WiFi device. I digress. As for the room it is crap with a semi arch half way back but when I retire - I'm 65 - and 47 stairs have become too much we will inevitably move and then, god willing, I'll re-record to suit the space. What I am mulling over at the moment is whether the amps. tape out is preamplified or comes directly from an input source unamplified. Do you see where I am coming from?
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 8:58 pm   #14
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

Hello Shaun. The record out is as you say straight from the input source except for the phono as this needs to be brought up to line level from a magnetic cartridge which is only 3 - 5 millivolts on average.

Edit: I've just done a google to have a look at your amp and it has electronic switching for the inputs so it needs to be switched on to pass a signal to the record output but should still be a straight signal path from the input.
David.

Last edited by teetoon; 8th Dec 2018 at 9:10 pm. Reason: updated info.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 9:04 pm   #15
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

As Julie says, you don't want an equaliser in the recording path. If you use it to adjust the sound to your taste, these changes will be on everything you record. If you then move, buy new speakers or rearrange your room, all your recordings will be wrong for your new setup.

If you put the equaliser where those links are, between the preamp and the power amp you can still adjust it to compensate for room/speaker effects and it will do the same adjustments for radio, records, CDs. If you change your room and readjust the equaliser then things are all sorted at the same time.

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Old 8th Dec 2018, 9:17 pm   #16
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

David, a hi fi graphic always has a tape monitor input and you can't use this if it is connected to a power amp input.
Also the record signal out from the graphic is not equalised unless you select it to be so.
There are times when it is desirable to eq a recording where like Shaun says the source sounds bad.

Shaun, what graphic eq do you have ?

David.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 9:25 am   #17
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

If you really want to be able to record the equalised signal, you will have to eschew the tape output on the amplifier. Get a pair of "Y" adaptors, plug these into the "power amp in" sockets, and connect both the equaliser outputs and the DBX processor inputs here. Now the tape deck will be fed, via the DBX processor, from the equaliser outputs. But note that if you do it ths way, you will create a feedback loop if you select "tape monitor" while recording and the tape deck's monitor switch is set to "source".
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 2:58 pm   #18
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

David, Teetoon, Julie_m, Radio Wrangler, Diabolical Artificer, Paul, Ted, Studio 263, Thank you. I believe I am nearly there thanks to your combined input and I remain adamant that I want to alter the structure of the recorded signal because for example, the eq. has no remote - thank god ....... I have enough - and it would mean leaving the dining table or comfortable seating regularly upon playback though it's arguable I need the exercise.

In answer to your questions I attach a pic of the front of the equalizer: a Kenwood GE-1000. Nothing states 'tape monitor'. My Revox B77 RtoR does of course have a monitor switch so that I can monitor the recording via phones but as yet I have never sought to monitor the recording through other than the headphones but this is without using the dbx or equalizer as I am always at sea and have not even seen the Kenwood or the dbx yet. Just trying to get familiar before I get home to set the entire system up with both of them in situ. I also attach pictures of the 210 & 208 amplifier remotes that I have in case they are of any help, the 210 being very complex.

David, re. the record output, thank you.

In response to Teetoon's observation (I have drawn up Julie_m's connections), "If you have a domestic hi fi eq with a tape monitor switch, then it is not suitable for connection between the pre and power sections. Anything coming out of the eq would not be controlled by the volume control on the amp as the main amp in sockets go straight to the power amp."Do the pictures answer this issue?
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 6:27 pm   #19
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

Right, drawn up the latest suggestion but here's where I have a problem with ignoring the amp's to tape output in favour of feeding it from the output from the dbx, itself supplied by the eq. when that's fed from the preamp output which is modified by virtue of the tone and volume controls (isn't it?).
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 8:49 pm   #20
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Default Re: Revox H5 Preamp 'Out' & 'Power in' Purpose & Use

Hi Shaun. That is a standard domestic hi fi graphic as I suspected.
As I said before, if it had been designed to go in the pre-power position it would not have tape inputs.

What I refered to as Tape Monitor, is called Tape A and Tape B on your unit as you have 2 Tape Monitor circuits.

Imagine you are recording to a 3 head tape deck, which you have, and whilst recording you want to monitor the recorded sound from the tape deck.
You would select tape on the graphic to hear the result.

As I said earlier, normally the graphic does not EQ the tape output unless it is selected to do so.
Edit: I just zoomed in on the picture of your EQ and there is a button marked REC ON/OFF. That's the one that lets you record with or without EQ. Sorted.

I think you're nearly there and you have some nice equipment so it's worth getting it right.

I didn't realise before that you were using a Revox B77, and all I can say is I would not bother with DBX. You don't need it and it means you always need a DBX equiped playback machine or set up. I kow it's your choice but I remember when Dolby C came out and I did loads of cassettes with it. Wish I hadn't now as I like using vintage decks that only have Dolby B. I was never a fan of the pumping effects that C caused either. With advancing years I find I don't worry about a little hiss as it's hardly noticable on a good deck.

Basically, it's all down to getting a good signal to the tape at a decent level.
What kind of music do you mostly wish to record ?

David.

Last edited by teetoon; 9th Dec 2018 at 8:59 pm. Reason: A later observation.
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