UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 6th Dec 2014, 7:24 pm   #221
Valve'n'vinyl
Pentode
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scarborough , North Riding of Yorkshire
Posts: 202
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
Valve'n'vinyl

May I suggest that you cut down the existing elements for your Band II aerial. Antiference elements were made out of good material - nothing a clean up with a Brillo pad would not fix for appearances either.

Three points for you:

1) The aerial is a director-dipole design, with the dipole being the rear pair. So remember that the highest frequency is determined by the length of the director (front pair).

2) The design is nearly omnidirectional at the bottom end of the frequency channel. So in its 405 line use the sound signal was picked up from all around. There was directivity though at the higher - vision - end of the channel.

3) Radio amateurs use 50 Mc/s these days. So you could attempt to re-commission the aerial to its full size glory and use it if you were so interested... Although I do see that a couple of the elements are broken near the junction box.
Thanks for that, Yes some of the elements are broken near the junction box ,hence the reason for me suggesting I get some decent alloy tube to replace it . Three of the elements seem to be strapped to the screened side and only one element seems to be strapped to its active side . So, 3 ground planes vs 1 receiving element?
Valve'n'vinyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Dec 2014, 7:38 pm   #222
AidanLunn
Heptode
 
AidanLunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Killamarsh, Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 748
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

6 aerials spotted fairly recently. First, 4 I've seen around the Sheffield area.

First one is on the Manor estate, just down the road from the third photo. Now, this area is in a total black spot of coverage from Emley Moor, and these houses were built a few years before the ITA 405 relay station at Crosspool opened in 1969 (it opened as a BBC-only 405 site in the early 60s). So, this band 3 aerial is pointing southwards towards Lichfield, for ATV reception.

The third is a 2 minute tram ride up the hill and is pointing towards either Emley Moor or Crosspool, in this locality, there is just a few degrees difference in direction, and this is on the fringe of reception of Crosspool.

The second is on another council estate further eastwards at Birley in Sheffield. There are many of these Vic Hallam and Finnegan style council houses in Sheffield, built between 1963 and 1969. The aerial is pointing towards Emley Moor and Holme Moss.

All of these aerials are results of a policy of Sheffield City Council's Housing Department that all countil estates should have one aerial system per estate. Some of these aerials no longer survive, having been taken down after a major renovation of their remaining Finnegans and Vic Hallams to prolong their life back in the mid-90s. The ones not decorated were sold under the Right-to-Buy policy before this.

The Fourth is in Worksop, again pointing towards Emley Moor/Holme Moss, atop a shop which has presumably been in the TV/electronics trade for many years.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant2.jpg
Views:	457
Size:	81.6 KB
ID:	101191   Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant4.jpg
Views:	446
Size:	89.8 KB
ID:	101192   Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant3.jpg
Views:	428
Size:	36.0 KB
ID:	101193   Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant6.jpg
Views:	451
Size:	78.2 KB
ID:	101197  

Last edited by AidanLunn; 6th Dec 2014 at 7:47 pm.
AidanLunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Dec 2014, 7:41 pm   #223
AidanLunn
Heptode
 
AidanLunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Killamarsh, Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 748
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

And the other two.

The first was another one spotted by myself on the coach from London Victoria coach terminus to my girlfriend down in Hastings. The aerial is very close to a large Lidl in Lewisham, obviously pointing towards Crystal Palace and Croydon.

The other one is in Lewes, seen on the train back to London from Hastings, when I choose that form of transport. It's within spitting distance of Lewes station.

As far as I can work out, it seems to be pointing towards Dover. I think the UHF log periodics are pointing towards either Heathfield or Midhurst, which are Northwards of Lewes.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant1.jpg
Views:	410
Size:	40.4 KB
ID:	101195   Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant5.jpg
Views:	432
Size:	62.7 KB
ID:	101196  
AidanLunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Dec 2014, 7:46 pm   #224
Nicklyons2
Octode
 
Nicklyons2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

I'd keep the original rods; if you're pruning it to band II lop off the cruddy end bits and use the centre section. Wire wool, Brillos or fine 'wet and dry' will bring the rods up well; personally I only shine up the ends wher they're used as contacts to the insulator - so about 22 at easch end - the rest can retain its 'patina'! Oh and one mod I also make - to stop the rods filling with water - bung up the top end of each rod i.e. not the far ends of each rod.
Nicklyons2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Dec 2014, 12:02 am   #225
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,420
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

All great fascinating stuff, nice rescue job of the Antex X aerial too.
As 2014 is vastly coming to a close perhaps we should start a thread on aerials seen in 2015, 30 years since the signals these aerials were designed to receive finally closed down.

Cheers and many thanks for your interest and contributions.
Brian
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Dec 2014, 10:47 am   #226
Nicklyons2
Octode
 
Nicklyons2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanLunn View Post
The third is a 2 minute tram ride up the hill and is pointing towards either Emley Moor or Crosspool, in this locality, there is just a few degrees difference in direction, and this is on the fringe of reception of Crosspool.
Surely the way to ditinguish whether an aerial was pointing at Emley or Crosspool, even if in a similar direction would be to look at the orientation; if memory serves Crosspool was ch6H as opposed to Emley ch10V.

As an aside, I recall that the original mast either at Crosspool or Tapton Hill as the BBC prefer to call it, was demolished by explosives rather than dismantled/unbolted.
Nicklyons2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Dec 2014, 10:53 am   #227
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 14,162
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklyons2 View Post
Oh and one mod I also make - to stop the rods filling with water - bung up the top end of each rod i.e. not the far ends of each rod.
On some Band-I aerials the bungs in the bottoms of the elements were there to retain a sawdust filling; this was put there to provide mechanical damping so stopping the thing both annoying the householder with its 'humming' and shaking itself to pieces when excited to resonance by the wind.

A length of sash-cord was sometimes used as an alternative 'filler'.
G6Tanuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Dec 2014, 11:16 am   #228
Nicklyons2
Octode
 
Nicklyons2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
On some Band-I aerials the bungs in the bottoms of the elements were there to retain a sawdust filling
And I can't tell you how horrid and smelly this becomes when it has filled up with water for 40 years or so - they can take months to dry out and stop dripping. Many later ones weren't filled though in my experience; i just prefer not to let water or anything else get in but, in case it does, I usually leave the lower end open to allow for draining - I do the same with the mounting poles.
Nicklyons2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Dec 2014, 11:31 am   #229
SteveCG
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,497
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

valve'n'vinyl

Re: the element lengths and junction box connection for the Antex design (other makers of X aerials did different things).

If you measure distance from the centre-of-the junction-box to the tip of the elements you should find that the 'rear' two are longer than the front two. The rear two are the dipole, the front two the director.

The connection of the inner of the coax to the upper rear and the braid to the other three via links was the usual way of setting the aerial up. I think such a set-up was claimed to reduce interference pick-up from the house below (most X's were mounted on the house's chmney stack).

I agree with what others have said about bungs, sawdust and sash-cords.

By the way: you will see that the element mounting bolts are at differing lengths from the centre of the junction box. So when you are drilling mounting holes in your new elements bear that in mind.
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th Dec 2014, 12:29 am   #230
AidanLunn
Heptode
 
AidanLunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Killamarsh, Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 748
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Another one spotted in Sheffield. Another "estate aerial" set up by the council it seems, this one is on a block of former council flats in Beauchief district.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant7.jpg
Views:	441
Size:	85.7 KB
ID:	102015  
AidanLunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd Feb 2015, 11:47 pm   #231
AidanLunn
Heptode
 
AidanLunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Killamarsh, Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 748
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Another one. I think this may have been for the original BBC TV Sheffield relay opened in 1960. This aerial is in Fulwood, West side of Sheffield, facing Eastwards towards the mast at Crosspool. The vertical UHF aerials are doing so, too.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant8.jpg
Views:	416
Size:	51.7 KB
ID:	103668  
AidanLunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Feb 2015, 7:57 am   #232
dsergeant
Octode
 
dsergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire,UK.
Posts: 1,177
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

AidanLunn - surely an amateur 2m yagi?
dsergeant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Feb 2015, 12:26 pm   #233
AidanLunn
Heptode
 
AidanLunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Killamarsh, Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 748
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Maybe, but as it's horizontal and the spacing between the elements, I'm certain it's an old 405-line TV aerial. Pointing in the direction of the Sheffield relay (which was horizontal polarisation on 405). In fact it looks almost the same as the council-erected one in the photo before.
AidanLunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Feb 2015, 1:02 pm   #234
SteveCG
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,497
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Re: post no 231 and subsequent.

... 'afraid the picture quality is not up for an identification with my eyesight.

Eight element Band III aerials are a bit unusual (but by no means impossible) in a new relay aerial installation. I wonder if could be an Emley Moor aerial that has been "turned" ?

Last edited by SteveCG; 4th Feb 2015 at 1:03 pm. Reason: word change
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Feb 2015, 1:50 pm   #235
HamishBoxer
Dekatron
 
HamishBoxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK.
Posts: 8,966
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Located Worksop Nottinghamshire November 2014.Either Emley Moor or Belmont transmitter.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3888.jpg
Views:	347
Size:	28.7 KB
ID:	103674  
__________________
G8JET BVWS Archivist and Member V.M.A.R.S
HamishBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Feb 2015, 2:10 pm   #236
Nicklyons2
Octode
 
Nicklyons2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

I'm tempted to agree with Aidan on this one, the photo isn't too clear but remember ch6 at 177MHz isn't that far from 2m band at around 148 MHz so the size is very similar. The Sheffield relay was only 100 Watts on ch6 so any distance at all would require some gain.
Nicklyons2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Mar 2015, 4:48 pm   #237
AidanLunn
Heptode
 
AidanLunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Killamarsh, Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 748
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

More 405 aerials from Sheffield:

All three are from the Beauchief district.

The last two are on flats dating from about 1960, but the house in the first photo is on a different estate, built around 1973, in an area which gets very good reception of Emley Moor on UHF, so it's surprising to see a 405 aerial on it.

The first two are, of course, pointing towards Emley Moor/Holme Moss. As for the third, I'm not sure what it could have been pointing towards, the direction the camera is pointing is roughly south/south west. It could have been Sutton Coldfield/Lichfield, Belmont, Emley/Holme or Burnhope/Pontop, all of which were receivable in south-west Sheffield on 405.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant9.jpg
Views:	381
Size:	29.0 KB
ID:	105149   Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant10.png
Views:	404
Size:	174.3 KB
ID:	105150   Click image for larger version

Name:	VHFant11.png
Views:	376
Size:	169.2 KB
ID:	105151  
AidanLunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th Mar 2015, 8:01 pm   #238
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,150
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
Located Worksop Nottinghamshire November 2014.Either Emley Moor or Belmont transmitter.
Or Sky! [Great picture} John.
Heatercathodeshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th Mar 2015, 11:15 pm   #239
Chris-G8ETC
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK.
Posts: 30
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

I live in my parents former home and can tell you that the loft area still retains an all metal band 1 two-element array aligned on Alexandra Palace and a band 3 yagi constructed on a wooden boom and aligned on the former ITA mast at Croydon. Both aerials were built and installed by my late father.

Since moving back into my childhood home, I have cut and removed both feeders that were pinned to the rear wall of the house, but that same cable route now hosts a twin feeder connected to a Sky dish fitted just above the gutter.

I live in hope that one day my father's old Band 1 aerial can be brought back into use!!!

Chris

Last edited by Chris-G8ETC; 9th Mar 2015 at 11:20 pm. Reason: Remove a 'comma' !!!
Chris-G8ETC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Mar 2015, 10:26 am   #240
Nicklyons2
Octode
 
Nicklyons2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Well you could bring the Band III one back into use because it is probably going to be pretty good for DAB. You could 'optimise' it a bit by shortening the rods but I would think, pointed in the right direction, it will be so much better than a room telescopic aerial even at its present dimensions.
Nicklyons2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:37 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.