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Old 20th Dec 2012, 11:40 am   #1
beamcurrent
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Default My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Last Sunday we the family round for lunch and after lunch I was presented with the dead Tele, a modern LCD with a DVD player built into the side. A famous superstores own brand offering.

Fixing it was easy, the hardest part finding the plastic tabs that have to be levered “just so” to open the case without breaking. On switch-on the set was going putt-putt and I thought power supply capacitor, and sure enough there were two caps that had bulged tops. Surprisingly the were on the secondary side, I did think it was more likely to be on the primary side. A rummage in the spares ice cream tub found two 1000 at 25v and a quick replacement followed. Job done, daughter really impressed.

But I got to thinking afterwards about those two cheap as could possibly be sourced caps and how there must be hundreds or thousands even of similar Teles all over the world heading for land fill, “not economic to repair sir” what a waste all for the cost of a few decent caps!

Brian
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 11:56 am   #2
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

This sort of problem is very common nowadays - glad you got this one fixed.
However, unless/until manufacturers offer longer warranties, they will use the cheapest components they possibly can (which will be calculated to last just beyond the warranty period). If they lasted longer i.e. better quality, they will cost more and Joe Public doesn't want that !

Andy
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 11:58 am   #3
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Default Re: My Daughters TV and a bit of a rant!

Brian, this set sounds very much like the Technika (Tesco) set I saved from landfill, this had the identical fault, two bulging caps at the top of the power board, looking online, it seems there is a lot of these sets with the same fault.

It is very satisfying to get them working again with little effort, my replacement caps were removed from a PC psu, these seem to be of above average quality.

As you say, it takes longer to work out how to get it apart, than doing the repair itself.

Mark
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 2:11 pm   #4
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Same here! my next door neighbour presented me with a 'Technika' TV/DVD combi last year and asked if it would be worth fixing and it was only 15 months old. Also found two caps with bulging tops....once I'd managed to get the thing apart!! I used 105 degree caps rescued from a power supply and all was well again. These things are like Meccano kits!

Rich
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 3:17 pm   #5
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

I don't think the manufacturer necessarily *intended* them to fail - certainly a few years back there were a lot of electrolytic-capacitor-failures caused - allegedly - by some Chinese industrial-espionage going wrong (they didn't steal the whole formula!).

Truth is, there are lots of "questionable" or even outright-fake components going round the electronics industry: I've seen quite a few electrolytic capacitors badged "Rulycon", an obvious take-off of the relatively-reputable "Rubycon" brand. When you're buying the things by the hundred-million it only takes a dodgy supplier to boost his profit-margins by slippingin a small percentage of dodgy parts to a consignment of otherwise-decent ones.

There are also fake transistors out there !

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Old 20th Dec 2012, 3:17 pm   #6
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The so called 'one year guarantee' is fiction, stuff should work 'for a reasonable period', for a telly I would hope for at least 5 years. The EU have done something about it here http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...ty-EU-law.html but for only two years.
 
Old 21st Dec 2012, 12:52 am   #7
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

I got a couple of non working LCD monitors for 99p each (I was the only bidder on a local collection item) I'm using one of them now, it was as above two failed capacitors.
The other one, though, uses multiple capacitors in parallel, presumably to offset the effects of failure.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 11:26 am   #8
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

They are so cheap to buy new these days that the public don't want them repaired. There is always a new must have 'upgrade' that renders anything over 18 months old, scrap.
You can buy a 42" in some outlets for as little as £299, a little over 40 packets of fags.
I still have the receipt for my Murphy 22" colour receiver from 1968. £330 TRADE!
It's a terrible waste generated by the 'consumers' themselves. Nothing has any value anymore and we're all going to hell on a handcart. Yes I'm full of Christmas spirit. Regards, John.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 12:39 pm   #9
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort View Post
They are so cheap to buy new these days that the public don't want them repaired. There is always a new must have 'upgrade' that renders anything over 18 months old, scrap.
That's the crux of the matter.

Huge quantities of electrical goods are dumped in fully working condition merely because someone's decided to buy something newer, the only major difference being its size/appearance in many cases.

And I've seen a lot of very new, working stuff rammed into dustbins merely because it's become surplus to requirements when couples get married or co-habit, and because it would be worth almost nothing if sold secondhand.

I've also seen students throw away working PCs, TVs, hifis and DVD players merely because it's too much hastle to take them home at the end of their university career.

Nick.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 1:02 pm   #10
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Even reputable capacitor manufacturers have their bad periods. About five years ago we had to do a product recall on 100,000 units, not a cheap exercise by any means. As these particular capacitors are used in a safety critical application they failed power up tests due to excessive leakage. Some started to leak electrolyte from the negative pin. The excessive leakage was due to the capacitors depolarising themselves between use and they needed to reform each time. Eventually the capacitor manufacturers put their hands up and admitted their production process was at fault.

These days for reliable performance I only specify 105 degC Rubycon, Panasonic, Nichicon, Chemicon and possibly Elna. Everything else is to be avoided as they simply don't even meet the manufacturers own data sheet specification when tested.

Cheers
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 1:15 pm   #11
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

And yet we're all supposed to be skint?

I've said often enough elsewhere that the penalty for throwing away food should be to be locked up without food, for as long as the food you threw away would have sustained you. Maybe I should apply the same principle to electronic equipment if I ever become Prime Minister; throw away a working or trivially-repairable piece of electronic equipment, and you're banned for owning another one like it for as long as the original would have lasted.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 2:15 pm   #12
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

It's not the cost of the caps' that is the problem. If I were to do the job I would have to charge realistic labour charges to make it worthwhile.

As pointed out when you can buy them brand new for £100 who is going to pay £50 to have their old one repaired?
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 2:34 pm   #13
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

People tend to adopt as attitudes for life whatever was the norm when they were children. As a 1950's child, with parents who had come through the war and didn't have a lot of money, I assume that things will be used until they are severely broken. My microwave oven and vacuum cleaner are both about 25 years old. Sadly, toasters and kettles now seem to last only 5-10 years before some small but crucial part fails.

It must be my age, but I am still baffled by the way that youngsters (such as my sister's kids, none of whom have much money) routinely upgrade their electronic toys every few years. Strangely, they still spend most of the time phoning and texting - which the older devices can do just as well.

There was a report in Which? a few months ago, which compared the expected life of modern items as seen by the manufacturers and puchasers. Roughly speaking, the average purchaser expects about half the life which I do. The manufacturers typically halve that again!

This all is unfortunate for our hobby. For us, mainly older folk, fixing old things to keep them working seems normal. For many of the younger generation this seems a weird thing to do. Fortunately there are exceptions.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 3:28 pm   #14
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Only this morning, whilst walking my dogs, I noticed a 42" Bush LCD set next to a skip. On knocking on the door, I was told that the set was not working and I was welcome to it. I went back with the van and was given both the remote and instructions!

I have had a quick check; looks like a PSU problem, the set has a manufacture date of 09/10

I am waiting for my power screwdriver to charge up before removing the dozens of screws securing the back.

Mark
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 3:31 pm   #15
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by G8HQP Dave View Post
Sadly, toasters and kettles now seem to last only 5-10 years before some small but crucial part fails.
I can't remember a kettle lasting anything like 5 years! Maybe it's the hard water here, or maybe it's because I normally only fill to the minimum line for one cup of tea, but plastic ones seem to start leaking after a year or so. Stainless steel ones do somewhat better, usually 2-3 years before the automatic shut-off stops working and they fill the kitchen with steam.

I normally get supermarket own brand stainless steel cordless ones as there seems to be no difference between them and the well known brands (apart from price).
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 5:58 pm   #16
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The big problem these days is the cost-of-labour.

So, your £400 flat-screen-TV lets out the magic smoke after 4 or 5 years.

Do you do a quick bit of Googling and buy a new one for £200, delivered-to-your-door next-day? With a 3-year-warranty?

Or do you spend time looking up a local repairer, calling them, and discussing the cost of repair?

Are you prepared to pay him/her £1-a-mile plus a per-minute rate (minimum charge £20) to come out to your house to collect the dead TV, then £50/hour plus parts to diagnose/repair the fault then another £1-per-mile plus 'elapsed time' charges to return the fixed TV?

Truth is, these things are not designed to be repaired - the production-engineers are quite happy to laser-weld the cases shut if it saves a couple of pounds on easily-open-uppable fixtures and fastenings. Over a few-million-units production cycle that's the difference between the product being a loss or a profit.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 6:07 pm   #17
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

As we don't have a 40 x 20 ft room, one of these modern TVs to paper the wall with is no use to us plus the fact they have eat-by dates.

Our 22 inch Beovision 7700 has excellent performance and I can fix it if it needs fixing.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 8:24 pm   #18
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

It's not just consumer equipment. Lots of otherwise reliable professional kit is let down by switched mode PSUs bought in from other manufacturers. We recently had a spate of failures of audio DSP units made in Europe by a reputable manufacturer, that relied on Far Eastern PSUs fitted with substandard electrolytics of a no-name brand. These have all had to be replaced at 12-18 months as the failure rate became unacceptably high. The high cost of the complete units and the likelihood of disruption in the event of failure makes it necessary for someone to go out to the customers' sites and replace every PSU board of that brand. The rest of the unit is rock solid. This story seems to be repeated with different makes and models of kit, more often than ever.

I am generally in favour of external power supplies for critical items, as it enables non-technical users to swap out the most likely culprit in the event of total failure, hence get the system going in an emergency or save a troubleshooting visit.

Lucien
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 8:30 pm   #19
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

I assume we see psu failure more frequently in the UK because our mains voltage is at the top end of the 'harmonised' range. The rest of Europe probably thinks modern kit is perfectly reliable .

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 8:36 pm   #20
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The reliability of SMPSUs is pretty much equal on lower voltages.
At 110V the FET takes twice the currant and gets hotter.
Capacitors here on 240V and FETs on 110V.
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