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Clubs, Groups and Societies For discussions about various clubs, groups and societies relating to our hobbies, such as the BVWS (incl RetroTechUK), BATC, RSGB, APTS, CLPGS, THG, TCC, BECG, MCR21 etc. This is NOT an official forum for any of these organisations.

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Old 13th Feb 2017, 11:34 pm   #61
Tyso_Bl
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

Has anyone done some research, like actually asking some "younger persons" why they're not interested in vintage electronics and so on?

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Old 13th Feb 2017, 11:41 pm   #62
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The trouble I find with youngsters (including my own kids) is that the modern world is so full of interesting and stimulating technology, that a valve radio, or a simple circuit built to do a dedicated task just isn't that exciting. They want the end product, i-Pad or whatever, and are not particularly bothered about how or why it does it. Unfortunately, this world needs engineers now and in the future to survive. The lack of young people who are going into engineering is a problem which will come back and bite us on the backside, big time. I personally started from a very early age, taking things apart, finding out how and why they work, built projects, some worked, some didn't. I learned a lot. I don't see this happening nowadays. Kids are discouraged from taking risks of any kind. The freedom I experienced while growing up has disappeared. You never see kids playing with toys in the garden, making and flying kites and model planes, or doing anything remotely constructive. There will be exceptions, but I guess there is a bit of a stigma associated with having those kinds of hobbies. It's not "cool". So we have a bit of a hard job trying to encourage youngsters to enter this hobby. Just my slant on things...
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 12:01 am   #63
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Hi there,
I have followed this thread with some interest and various people have made some valid comments. I started secondary school in 1978, when there was huge amounts of valve gear still in use. I had always been fascinated by all things electrical/ electronic. Out of 150 boys in my year, only one other (now a lifelong friend) had the slightest interest in the same things I did. We were both pretty 'geeky' and still are!
Because consumer electronics was still very expensive, there was a real bonus in getting old gear working or adapting things for a new purpose. If I was 18 again now, I can't believe I would see much point in repairing modern 'disposable' items.
If we ask the question why we are involved in this hobby, I am sure nostalgia plays a huge part- we played about with this stuff when we were young and now the bulk of us are 50 plus so it gives us a familiar link to our past. Note I say 'our' past, not the past of the younger generation to whom valve radio's, black and white tv, VHS video etc has no direct relevance. Hopefully, when they are our age, they will find their own things to be nostalgic about.
I know many other members are involved with other vintage technologies and I am sure the same problems exist. I have been involved with Austin /Morris 1100 cars for nearly 30 years. Most members in our club are over 60. The problem is the cars are just not relevant to anyone who does not remember them at the time. Consequently, there are very few youngsters involved.
Sadly, I think we have to face the fact that in 20 or so years time, the 50 year olds will have become 70 year olds and the 70 year olds will have moved onto better things! Vast swathes of technologies that we love and understand will be consigned to the skip!
Does that matter? No, I don't think it does, so long as we are not here to see our kids throw our lifelong collections into the skip
From what I see of young people, I think they will do just fine with the world and take it on to better things with the technologies they understand. So I can't see much point trying to instil an interest in valve tech just to prevent our collections from being junked!!
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 12:30 am   #64
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I can see what Jaybee means [post 58] in relation to the world moving on. At 50 he is indeed on the cusp of both worlds but maybe the Diplomatic Service would not be an ideal career choice. He does need to be heard however just to present that point of view, as things are closing down fast around us and I don't just mean MW/SW Broadcasting.

I will repeat my boring thesis once more that [following Katrina with no Internet /Cell Phones] there is a practical role for ancient technology. Everything congruent with modern life can be instantly removed via a Server Cabinet on an Industrial Estate just outside Swindon. On that basis, a vintage historical interest assumes [potentially] much greater significance, independence and importance if only because of it's potential for non-internet communication. Others may disagree but I think it's our cultural and scientific attitude that actively encourages an alternative outlook.

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Old 14th Feb 2017, 11:01 am   #65
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

Something that's interesting is that our hobby might be something that people come to later in life.
I was quite usual being into classical music from a young age, I used to go to concerts and was amazed to see a sea of grey haired people in the audience, fast forward 40 years and I still see a sea of grey, and I seem to be getting closer in age to them, these cant be the same people!
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 4:45 pm   #66
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...the Gestapo-esque moderation doesn't help either. People are people and so long as nobody is making threats they should be able to say what they like... I feel the vintage crowd could learn a lot from the rough and ready digital crowd.
Sorry, JayBee, I couldn't disagree more. The quality and consistency of the moderation sets this Forum apart from the rest. Equally I have found 'the vintage crowd' to be more friendly, courteous, generous and willing to share their knowledge than any other group of people I've had the pleasure of meeting. The virtual absence of 'rough and ready' is this Forum's USP, in my view.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 5:57 pm   #67
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I had Meccano, Lego and things Dad brought back from work for me to dismantle. I was always fascinated by all things mechanical, electrical and electronic. My future interests were a foregone conclusion from the start! I was lucky...
You're describing our 5 year old - he loves Lego, his physics set (a more mechanical version of Lego) and is starting on Meccano although he finds it a bit fiddly at the moment. He also loves anything that lights up and is just starting to understand the concept of a circuit. Yesterday he asked me how a musical box worked.

The only problem is that he gets a bit scared when things make strange noises (as I did at his age) so he doesn't like things that aren't working properly.

I'm more into tape recorders and audio rather than radio and he's already been inspired to make his own version of a tape recorder out of various objects after seeing the Revox in action. I don't know whether these interests will last but previous generations in our family have been into radio and electronics so it looks possible.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 6:06 pm   #68
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It's not all that bad, look at the proliferation of DIY stores, lots of people are doing things.
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who has joined an antique furniture forum then complains that it's all about old chairs
I like my old Skull 139 Windsor chair (I have four, given to me ages ago), found out what they where at the Wycombe museum (free entry and parking, and a small cafe with proper 'made by local ladies' cake by the huge slice).
 
Old 14th Feb 2017, 8:15 pm   #69
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

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Finally, the Gestapo-esque moderation doesn't help either. People are people and so long as nobody is making threats they should be able to say what they like. Still, joining the forum was easier than joining the Radio Museum, which was rather akin to joining the Freemasons. If you want knowledge to live then it must be easily accessible with no barriers and no worrying about treading on eggshells. I feel the vintage crowd could learn a lot from the rough and ready digital crowd.
In this post you made a lot of very valid points however the final paragraph was a little pointed.

In some respects it reflects the attitude of the younger generation toward forums and on line content in general.

I just want to make the following point. The UKVRRR forum is owned and paid for by Paul Stenning so its his house.

As its his house if I have to take off my shoes in his house that's what I do.

As for Radiomuseum they are simply trying to weed out freeloaders. I found the process of joining a little frustrating but to be honest once they accepted I was serious about joining they have been very helpful.

I am not having a go and I think we all accept something needs to change but maybe that's a new forum tailored to the needs of a younger generation.

As with any forum anyone who want to get into the rough and tumble can join. But someone needs to step forward get such a forum running.

I know many members would give it a go but this forum is the calm in a mad digital word I do not see it as the forum Jaybee66 describes.

Maybe Jaybee66 you would like to host such a forum I am sure you will get plenty of support from many of us old lags.

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Old 14th Feb 2017, 8:32 pm   #70
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The primary question is 'Do we want young people to be interested in the hobby', and if so, why do we want it, which point I think was raised by Lucien some pages back.
I do find these threads interesting, because I personally think it would be good to see some young people involved- I mean younger than me, although I suspect at 35, I'm still relatively young- but they do go round in a cycle that repeats something like 'youth is disinterested in all I believe good' something about 'computer games and skills loss', etc. Whilst as with all stereotypes, there is some truth in this, it's not by any means universal, nor does it offer any encouragement to any young enthusiasts to pipe up. There could even be one lurking at the moment, their enthusiasm to get involved diminishing with every post. I know I lurked here for a year or more before joining, when I started to become practically active in the hobby. If we want them, we should welcome them and recognise that they are all individuals- were a young member to dismiss all of us as boring old guffers wasting our time in sheds, we'd be cross about it, and rightly so. But the inverse should also apply, if we are seriously talking about the future of the hobby.
With regard to nostalgia and prior experience, I'm interested primarily in TV, the earlier the better. If I could, I'd surround myself with pre-war sets and nothing else, but not because they evoke my youth or professional experience- because i love the monolithic nobility of a developing technology so different to that I grew up with.
I believe that it was mentioned somewhere above that all hobbies are by definition minority practices- this applies even to hugely popular hobbies such as railway enthusiasm, classic cars, etc. We can't expect all young people to love valve radios or huge 405 line televisions. We can guarantee, though, that some will, no matter what. I know people who love mediaeval re-enactment. I think I can safely say that none of them do so out of nostalgia. The young people will be out there, do we want to welcome them?
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 8:37 pm   #71
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

JayBee66 is bang right on his post.

Time has moved on - My neices son (15) can't understand the point of vintage radio at all.

"Why listen on a set that doesn't get f****** modern music - what's the point ?.

"AM .... (eh?), reception is rubbish and why isn't R5L on FM so "normal people" can listen to it" LOL !

"Why bother with that, when my iPhone gets all the "radio" I need" - though he likes me feeding my radios with smartphone radio as something a bit different.

It's affecting sport too - Amateur Rugby League is dying a death with millenialls.

The Pennine League offers an 11 a side league (rather than 13) in their bottom division - as it's cheaper to get a set of soccer shirts to play, and saves games being walkovers due to not being to raise 13 players easily.

But still, many sides have gone to the wall.

I don't think kids would put up with the moderation on here either - kids like to be forthright with opinons (look at Facebook for instance).

I noticed a thread on here on BT was locked as soon as someone had the audacity to slightly critisise them (I do on other forums as being a monothical bully, note the recent line rental increase to pay for BT Sport). I've no doubt I won't be liked - or get a strike for posting this.

It doesn't matter if the RAE is made to be easy - you can talk to anyone via WhatsApp now - why bother to talk to someone on 40m about the weather ?

Why even need the RAE anyway? who builds their own stuff nowadays ?

Go on line and buy a 2m / 70cm handheld from Beofang for a few quid - but there again to talk to who ?

Some of the repaters sound like a closed club (the "G's") sounding like they are looking down their noses on the "M0's")- "NA" used to even years ago - the main reason I never bothered with it, though theory wise I'd fly it as I did it during my apprenticiship as a sparky.

The hobby needs young blood - the only thing I can think of as an equlivelent is playing old games on Atari ST's or Commordore 64's - and the repair of PSU's in them etc.

I had a laugh with Kyle over a book of hobbies from the last war I had.

Virtually every hobby in that book has died out - he couldn't believe how "boring" they all were !

Just like other things - hobbies die out, it's just how it is.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 9:00 pm   #72
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

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Time has moved on - My neices son (15) can't understand the point of vintage radio at all.
This is the danger of using personal experience to make general observations. We are all very prone to this as human beings- we evolved in little bands where "everyone" and "everyone I know" were the same thing and our brains still think that way. But the chances of one's personal circle, let alone just family, sharing a minority interest, are pretty remote.

If one in one thousand people are interested in something, the chance you know any of them is pretty small. But in the UK population, that's about 60,000 people. Which is why we normally need other mechanisms than personal acquaintance for meeting them.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 9:11 pm   #73
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

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It's not all that bad, look at the proliferation of DIY stores, lots of people are doing things.
That isn't quite so. DIY has to an extent given way to 'GSI' - Get Someone In'. If you look at B&Q for example, they've greatly expanded the space in their stores given over to the Trade Counter, but have also closed down many loss making stores.

In part, the decline in DIY is demographic, and is attributed to 'generation rent' and 'buy to let' landlords.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...rst-time-buyer

http://www.themoneypages.com/latest-...s-women-catch/

As a child, no-one encourage me to have a hobby of any sort - I became interested in radio initially when at a B&B when on holoday in Mablethorpe aged about ten in the late 1940s. The landlady's son had made a little one-valve radio. He put the headphones on me to listen to Morse code, radio amateurs and broadcast stations, which I found exciting. When aged about 14 I had a newspaper round and looked forward to each Wednesday when Hobbies Weekly came out. I dawdled around thumbing through the pages at the simple circuits for crystal sets and one valve receivers, and that was the catalyst for a hobby that continues to this day. It wasn't my only hobby - I was into aero-modelling and boat building, and nowadays, am secretary of the local woodturning club which has more than fifty active members, of whom half a dozen are female, but few are aged under 45.

I had no parental support - didn't have a father, didn't have much money. Conversely, When our sons came along (now aged 53 & 49), I encouraged them to develop practical skills, but none of it rubbed off. Our eldest son did maths, physics and engineering science at A level, and went on to gain a first class honours in mechanical engineering, simply because that's the direction in which he was funnelled.

He had no interest in pursuing a career in engineering, isn't the least bit practical, but has had a very successful career, running his own marketing company, operating across five continents. When assembling a flat-pack bicycle at Christmas with me, he couldn't fit one of the pedals and said there was something wrong with the thread. I said 'try turning it anti-clockwise - that side will have a left hand thread'. True enough, the pedal screwed in. When I asked him why that might be, he hadn't a clue - his eyes glazed over.

Basically, if the spark of interest isn't there, no amount of persuasion, cajoling or encouragement will ignite the flame.

My younger son was more interested in practical things and enjoyed model making. When he was about 12, he helped me build a radio-controlled model boat for him to sail. He's has it on display in his study for many years, and in 2011, aged 43, he said 'dad, why don't we smarten it up and get it back on the water?' He re-painted it, added some model sailors and I refurbished the electrics and fashioned some brass-work. I've attached a few pics of the boat and my son sailing it on the local model boat pond. A nice little 'lads 'n dads' project which we both enjoyed immensely.

Of no relevance to electronics but a tenuous connection to the cabinetry skills needed for 'woodie' radio restoration, I've added a picture of a Windsor chair that I made in 1999, basically, because I could and I enjoyed doing it, and the range of skills involved. (The chair is mostly ash - the seat is elm, once commonplace but now virtually unobtanium in that width due to Dutch elm disease). The seat was carved out with a traditional chair-making tool called a 'travisher'.

I hope that hasn't taken the thread too far off topic.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 9:27 pm   #74
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Default Re: Attracting younger members to Vintage Equipment

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Time has moved on - My neices son (15) can't understand the point of vintage radio at all.
This is the danger of using personal experience to make general observations. We are all very prone to this as human beings- we evolved in little bands where "everyone" and "everyone I know" were the same thing and our brains still think that way. But the chances of one's personal circle, let alone just family, sharing a minority interest, are pretty remote.

If one in one thousand people are interested in something, the chance you know any of them is pretty small. But in the UK population, that's about 60,000 people. Which is why we normally need other mechanisms than personal acquaintance for meeting them.
Absolutely. I used to assist in a primary school, ages ranging from 4 to 11. I took my open horn gramophone ( built by me, not an original) in on a couple of occasions. I always had a group of 3 or 4 come up afterwards to find out more about it, how it worked and how I made it. If I'd picked a random child, statistics suggest they'd be totally uninterested. Just like the rest of us. Pick one in 100 out of any age group, chances are they'd be bored stiff by our hobbies.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 9:30 pm   #75
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Apropos of which- I also once dummied up a demonstration of Bell's telephone experiment for Year 3&4 (roughly 7-9 years old). I was surprised at how readily they grasped, from first principles, the conversion and re-creation of sound waves using electricity, and even the basic concept of increasing resistance over distance. They're not daft, these kids, not all of them.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 9:46 pm   #76
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I think it's all to do with whether you are a creative type of person or not. I, like you, David went through all the model making, radio, model railways, mechanics etc when I was growing up and two forms of engineering have stayed with me. Radio/electronics, and mechanics, in the form of motorbikes. I would still like to get back into aeromodelling, but unfortunately time constraints and other hobbies are getting in the way. I enjoy building things and making them work. In the early days, when things were not as widely available, or too expensive to buy, the only option was to make them if at all possible. This isn't normally the case in modern times. The man (or woman) in the street has purchasing power. Technology is cheap. If you can't afford it outright you can get it on credit. There is little point in building something if it's now fifty times cheaper to buy it on the high street. So we are left with the hobbyist. Skilled people with a genuine interest in what they are doing. It doesn't bother me if the neighbours wonder what I am making or why I spend all my spare time in the workshop. I don't care if they don't understand why I have spent so much time making something which appears "pointless". I don't think it's easy to push our hobbies and interests on other folk, whatever their age. You are either into it, or not.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 9:46 pm   #77
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My sons are in their 20s with no interest whatsoever in making or mending things. The generation gap is also what presumably kills my enthusiasm for stuff like social media, mobile phones, MP3s. I can't think why i'd ever want to adjust my heating while I'm out etc.
The oldest lad is a software engineer so it'd be wrong to think of them as impractical, just they have no interest in old things and a strong belief that new tech is always better. Sometimes they politely ooh and aah around whatever old artefact I've managed to resurrect but I can see it leaves them cold really.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 10:23 pm   #78
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I have a simplistic view, you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink, it'll drink if it wants to but only if it's ready.

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Old 15th Feb 2017, 12:31 am   #79
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My sons are in their 20s with no interest whatsoever in making or mending things. The generation gap is also what presumably kills my enthusiasm for stuff like social media, mobile phones, MP3s. I can't think why i'd ever want to adjust my heating while I'm out etc.
The oldest lad is a software engineer so it'd be wrong to think of them as impractical, just they have no interest in old things and a strong belief that new tech is always better. Sometimes they politely ooh and aah around whatever old artefact I've managed to resurrect but I can see it leaves them cold really.
I suppose I have got a foot in both worlds

I love MP3s etc - I feed mine through my radios either on Gram input or FM transmitter.

Plus even in the 60s transistor radios were too dear for most kids - valve radios were being cast aside like an old shoe at that time, many turning up at jumble sales.

My parents usually got me one for a bob or so - when it stopped working - I'd strip it down and save the valves for other sets.

I've no doubt there are some kids who would love to play about with stuff - but a lot of parents can't even use a screwdriver properly, and most schools are scared for health and safety reasons.
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Old 15th Feb 2017, 2:15 pm   #80
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I’m still a relative youngster at 27. I suppose my experience might be worth sharing.

I got into vintage gear just over a year ago. Before that I’d been into electronics from quite a young age when I used to build simple circuits with ICs and transistors.

I’ve always been more or less interested in things that were old or ‘retro’ – mostly vehicles and machinery. I don’t think I gave vintage electronics much serious thought however until I played a videogame (Bioshock) set in a stylised 1950s city. I was blown away by the Art Deco style and loved the period soundtrack. After downloading it I wanted something appropriate to play it back on, and eventually found a 50s tape recorder. The rest is history (along with all the space in my house… )

This might seem an unlikely way to access the hobby, but the vintage appeal of some videogames has reached a lot of people – especially the Bioshock and Fallout series. The soundtracks are very popular on YouTube and consist of music people my age would probably never have heard otherwise, much less actively listened to. It’s amusing to read the reactions of those who actually remember the songs from their youth (“What on Earth is Bioshock” etc.)

As far as vintage tech is concerned, Bioshock and Fallout both featured TV test cards very prominently. One of the first things I displayed on my first 405 line TV was the Bioshock test card (preceded by Test Card C for the purists )! There were also radios, tape recorders, phonographs, gramophones and valve-based computers. The internet is full of attempts to create prop replicas and other objects in the vintage style. It may not be too much of a stretch for at least a few people to embrace the real thing. Gaming types are often ‘techy’, and it doesn’t take much to make the jump to vintage kit. When I started out I knew how a triode and a CRT worked, but that was about it.

Many young people are still interested in electronics, but as others have said, digital usually predominates. The exception is certainly audio electronics where valves will probably survive indefinitely. When I was at college, every metalhead wanted to build a distortion pedal.

When starting out with my first restoration, I wasn’t sure what level of information or advice would be available. Happily, it turns out that service manuals and most components are still very easy to find. I’ve found this forum to be very helpful and welcoming with a friendly atmosphere. Compare that to some of the gaming forums I’ve been on in the past, where no one has anything constructive to say and the atmosphere is toxic. People here are also extremely generous when it comes to sourcing obscure parts. I hope I can start to return the favour when my bits box has grown a bit!

For the future, I think there will always be people who are curious about that DAC90A they’ve found in the loft and wonder if it’s possible to get it running again. We need to encourage these people (again, I think the forum does an excellent job), and hopefully dissuade them from undertaking the dreaded Bluetooth conversion! It’s a pity that the most common/popular UK radio hasn’t got any gram sockets…

I think a bigger danger than the lack of enthusiasts may be the misconception that equipment cannot be restored or used. The most common questions people ask me are ‘can you still get the valves’ and ‘does it still work with modern radio’ – to which my answer is always yes. I had a similar experience recently when buying an old Tilley paraffin lamp. The seller insisted that the mantles were no longer available, but it turns out they are still manufactured. There is even a vintage pressure lamp forum.

Now that I've started I don’t see myself ever getting tired of this hobby. It’s been a real eye opener for me and getting into it was one of the best things I ever did. I don’t have the nostalgic connection to valve equipment in my youth that many older people do, but starting the reels on my tape recorder will always transport me to a crumbling Art Deco dystopia under the sea, which I suppose is close enough!

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Sorry if this was a bit long winded!

Liam
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