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Clubs, Groups and Societies For discussions about various clubs, groups and societies relating to our hobbies, such as the BVWS (incl RetroTechUK), BATC, RSGB, APTS, CLPGS, THG, TCC, BECG, MCR21 etc. This is NOT an official forum for any of these organisations.

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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 12:53 pm   #1
TriMan66
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Default Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Hi,
I wanted to open some healthy debate about the current state of affairs regarding valves at our BVWS auctions.
The vast majority of valves for sale are ending up with one person, or sometimes just a few people. It is incredibly annoying to attend auctions, to bid on valves and to be constantly out-bid.
Personally, when I attend, I am only after one box most times, with some useful valves for my restortation projects and to put some away in my own small collection. I would have thought that this is the spirit of these auctions attended by BVWS members and not for the commercial gains of just a few.

I am not aware of anything at present that precludes purchase of goods at these auctions from being sold on for further gains. Nor do I see a problem with this practice when seen on the context of a healthy mix of people buying for their own personal collections.
However, I would suggest that there is a very unhealthy mix regarding valves where close to no valves for sale are being distributed across a range of BVWS members for their own personal restortation projects and collections.
My opinion is that this is not, nor should be, in the spirit of BVWS auctions.

Now, it has to be said, that the auction process is there to acheive the best price for the seller. So one possible solution is to ask all those sellers and purchasers whos ONLY interest is commercial to use any other auction site and allow BVWS members to attend BVWS auctions to pursue our hobby.

This is not meant to be a witch hunt, but to re-balance our BVWS autions. It would be good to hear others view on this topic. Any other suggestions are welcome.


regards
Craig
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 4:26 pm   #2
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Hi Craig, I was at the last Harpenden auction, and would have bid for a box myself if prices had not shot up beyond my limit. I would be unhappy to think any bidders were there to supply their business, and I believe it is understood that one must not buy at these events to resell at a profit. Looking at past auctions, it appears some things are reaching higher levels.

As a possibly relevant aside, I was also distressed when the auctioneer informed us that knobs had been taken during viewing. Is it a worthwhile suggestion that any items interfered with are withdrawn and sold eleswhere? This will be a pain for the organisers - but is regrettably common practice at some auctions to remove parts, rendering the lot less attractive, and then bid and win at a lower price - although I would not want to suggest this occurrs with BVWS. The trouble is, that once dishonesty occurs, the whole thing falls down - for example, desirable valves might vanish from a box, or from a set. Perhaps, if practicable, boxes with valuable items therein could be placed on the table in clear view of the stewards? Once you know there are thieves about, fear of theft makes life tedious, and you have to watch everything. Hopefully these activities don't happen much, as there is clearly so much good will and work on behalf of the organisers, but you don't want thieves to benefit.

Tony

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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 5:13 pm   #3
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Ok, here's a scenario.
I see a box of valves with a particular one that I want, say for example with particular markings for a restoration.
So I buy the box for £40, but when I get home SWMBO goes mad.
I have to re-coup my money, but it's another six months until the next auction, so I stick them on ebay.
I know when I buy a valve I like reassurance that it's been tested so I do the same. It's not worth testing the more common valves, so I might offer them in lots. With a bit of time and effort, I may end up getting the valve I wanted for nothing, or even make a profit.
Does this make me guilty of the same? After all, it's not so different to what a dealer might do.
So what are the options?
Ban certain buyers - do we really want to reduce BVWS's income? Leave aside the ill feeling this may cause.
Split boxes into smaller lots - already an option but would slow proceedings and may leave certain lots unsold.
What pains me more is seeing old 'grams going for next to nothing, only to be stripped for the amplifier.
As for the knob thief, that's on their conscience.
I think on the whole Mike and his team do a thoroughly excellent job, and have enough on their plate to worry about.
Rob.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 5:18 pm   #4
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Craig,

This issue isn't just prevalent at BVWS auctions - Radiophile auctions also suffer, and attending Radio Rallies you will find the same half dozen "usual suspects" buying up all of the goodies.

However, the situation is simple, unless the rules have changed BVWS Auctions were not meant for traders to deal from - admittedly it was a long time ago this rule was in place, but it may well be true still.

In the real world though, what is wrong with "usual suspects" buying lots - they provide a service to collectors, yes prices might be a little higher, but they have to make a living - There have been a number of instances at Radiophile Auctions where known dealers have been outbid on lots - it gets to the point where a dealer can no longer make a profit.

Hard as it is, the value of good NOS valve lots are rising, and at an alarming rate - there is a finite supply, and I would guess we are coming to the point where they are finally disappearing from general ownership - end users are just going to have to accept the hike in prices - in 10 years mixed boxes of valves have gone from a fiver up to £80-90 each!

The joys of auctions eh?
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 5:50 pm   #5
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

It's not just valves, though I admit that boxes of valves going to dealers is becoming a problem for the common-garden collector. I have seen stuff from Auctions appear elsewhere within two days and I once bought a tape recorder from a guy that still had a Radiophile auction number on it.

Another problem Mike has now is that people tend to remove 'Valuable' items from collections and then give the rest to the BVWS to sell for them. At a recent auction. Mike was pretty peeved and he described the auction as 'Pulling Teeth', which after the work he puts in is pretty annoying as well as depressing.

As far as Auctions go, then any suspect bidding patterns should stand out. And if anyone is found tampering with lots, i.e. removing knobs, then they should be kicked out of the society, removed from the auction on the spot and the police becoming involved as it is no more than common theft. It casts a bad light on us all and should not be tolerated.

Of course, the entire auction could be stopped until the miscreant owns up or the offending person puts the knobs down somewhere and they are found.

I'm just very sad that these things are creeping in to what was a Gentleman's hobby and for 99.99% still is.

Cheers,

Steve P.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 6:41 pm   #6
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Good evening,
I too have also seen the same few people at quite a few Radiophile auctions buying up all of the more valuable valve goodies and I wander if they are for resale somewhere else.

Maybe limit how many lots an induvidual can bid on per auction as the ordinary restorer like me may only want a few restoration projects and maybe the odd box of components to take home at any one time.

As for pinching knobs off radios that is a resl discrace that can drastically reduce the desirability and selling price of a once complete radio restoration project.

As for the offender, I hope his knob drops off (pun possibly intended!!)

Christopher Capener
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 8:37 pm   #7
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Quote:
Maybe limit how many lots an induvidual can bid on per auction as the ordinary restorer like me may only want a few restoration projects and maybe the odd box of components to take home at any one time.
I don't think you will find many vendors supporting this idea - take the last Wetwood sale - 400+ lots that all belonged to one seller - a number of the less desirable sets went with one buyer - about 3 car loads!

Without them the vendor would have had to transport the unsold lots back to Scotland!

As for stuff being nicked - this sadly is a far too common problem - it isn't unknown for RA17s to loose their GZ34s.....
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 9:07 pm   #8
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

I think it's partly the organisation of the lots. Yes I know it's more work for the organisers to break them up and yes, some auctions have a huge amount of stuff, probably too much.

For instance 5Y3GT is a valve that many of us would be interested in, also of audio interest and getting dearer. Always good to have a few spare.

How much would we bid for a lot of 5 NOS 5Y3GTs? £20, £25, £30?

How much would we bid for a lot of a hundred? £150 would be a lot for most of us to pay for an auction lot of valves, and whoever bought them would have more than they could use and would pretty much be obliged to think of selling most of them on, but they'd be a bargain to someone who went with a view to buying stock to sell.

Nobody else gets a sniff and the seller of the valves is sold short.

I've seen something very similar happen at a Radiophile auction. I bought the previous lot of valves and a couple of people confused me with the buyer of the 5Y3GTs and came up to me and asked if I wouldn't mind selling them a couple.

Pete.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 11:40 pm   #9
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

I absolutely agree with most of what has been said. Yes, there is far too much stuff being bought up by the dealers. We, the genuine collectors don't get a look in because the usual faces are always there snapping up anything that they can make a profit on. As if they don't get the perks of getting first dibs at the big shows which they clearly do because like The NVCF all the desirable radios have been sold to dealers before the public get a look in. Sadly it's the same at WB and Harpie. This is supposed to be a hobby for genuine collectors and I believe it's time that some restrictions were put in place. Colin.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 12:44 am   #10
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

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. As if they don't get the perks of getting first dibs at the big shows which they clearly do because like The NVCF all the desirable radios have been sold to dealers before the public get a look in.
With the NVCF you could pay I think £15 rather than a fiver to get in early. I used to because I came up from Bristol with a friend and he insisted it was worth the extra on top of the juice and parking not to have people crushing round. I came to think paying the extra was a good decision. I was surprised the way people were amenable to negotiation before the crush. Having tried it, I was surprised so many didn't think the extra was worth paying. It was everyone's choice whether to pay the extra or not.

I don't think it's practical to stop stallholders selling to each other during setup.

Pete.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 12:53 am   #11
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

How many of those who want the auctions done differently would be willing so spend a few long days in Devizes sorting, lotting, photographing and loading the van, then get up very early on auction day to start unloading and setting up from 7am.... all for free (just expenses reimbursed)? Five times a year, plus any extra auctions we add?

I rest my case.

Everyone seems to have ideas that give Mike and the rest of us more work, but nobody ever offers to muck in and seriously help.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 1:06 am   #12
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

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I think on the whole Mike and his team do a thoroughly excellent job, and have enough on their plate to worry about.
Rob.
I quite agree Paul.
Please count me in at the next Harpenden, I noticed there were only two porters at the last one, it must have been hard work for the pair of you.
Rob.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 9:33 am   #13
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

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Originally Posted by XTC View Post
I don't think it's practical to stop stallholders selling to each other during setup.

Pete.
It is very important that stallholders like myself stick stringently to the BVWS rules regarding selling before start time. It is unfair on the buyers who have waited up to an hour in the rain and cold to eventually get in to find the best stuff creamed off between sellers. Pressure to sell before start time is much greater at Harpenden than at RWB with eager-to-buy sellers quoting "stallholders priviledge" and trying to hide my stuff out of the sight of others, but we must stick to our guns. If I have good stuff then I want everyone to have a fair chance.
Neil
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 10:56 am   #14
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Ah, with jumble sales it was ever thus I'm afraid - the early bird catches the worm. And despite the horribly mixed metaphor/proverb, trying to do anything about it would open a whole can of worms. 'It's unfair that people who get into the hall early have first choice.' Well in a sense isn't it unfair that people who live further away, so can't get to the site early enough to be at the front of the queue, also lose out ? Not to mention the fact that the price of everything they buy is, in practice, loaded by a share of their ever-increaing petrol bill (I got a real bargain - shame it cost me so much to get it). And what about those who live so far away that getting to these events at all is essentially impossible ? How can we make it 'fair' for them ?

The short answer I'm afraid is that anything beyond the usual basic arrangements would require a great deal of complex process which would, in turn, need policing. And since all this would fall on the shoulders of the organisers, who already seem to be contributing time and effort far beyond the call of duty, I expect it isn't going to happen.

The one thing that would make a difference is, as Neil points out, if stallholders simply refused to sell before the doors opened. With enough effort it would also be possible to discourage rummaging in advance - I know stallholders at other events who take their stuff in in sealed boxes and throw a blanket over the whole lot until the sale proper starts. They also stick to their original selling prices until as many buyers as possible have had a chance to look the goods over. Only then are they prepared to start haggling. The downside of this of course is that buyers come away with fewer bargains since one man's bargain is another's missed opportunity . So is the aim to squeeze out bargains ? Some might feel that that would be a negative line to take ...

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 11:48 am   #15
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

Hi All,

I'd Like to reply to this thread.

We can only produce a set of rules for stall holders to abide to and hope that they do (at least the BVWS actually have some). They are very clear and we (the BVWS) mean them.

I am usually "locked in" on the stage and can see most everything that is going on in the hall at Harpenden and mostly WB.
Stall holder name labels (at WB) have these rules printed on them. We will place them on all tables at Harpenden from now on.

It has been my sad duty more than once to wag the finger at someone or even shout at them from the stage when I see a handful of bank notes being flapped around when stall holders are setting up.
I am pretty easy going usually and remind people who look as if they are about to make a sale or purchase by making my presence known.

Just to make this clear:

I WILL, WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT kick either a stallholder or a buyer out if I see them blatently dealing before the opening time at a BVWS event.

I suggest that you don't test me on this unless you are prepared for the outcome!

As Neil says, it is not fair.
Stall holders should not feel pressurised into selling before time, the buyer will always be back if they want it enough.

I too have been at other radio events in years past where I am within the first few through the door only to find a specific radio is stated as already sold.

I had to remind several people of this at Golborne in March over a radio we had on the BVWS stall, and at opening time there was nearly a fight between two people to get it.

Auctions:
The only real alternative I see to the problem of people buying up everything at auctions is simple.

1) lot every single item as a separate lot, (could be a long auction with very little in it).
2) pay the going rate for what is being sold, (it is an auction after all).
3) don't have any auctions.

We have to resign ourselves to the fact that "you can't please all of the people, all of the time"

If you want something specific in a box you did not win, then approach the winning buyer, as it may be that what you want is not what they bought the box for and will happily sell you the item. I have seen this done several times.

The valve sales at the August 2011 special auction at WB were compiled (by me) into many boxes of mixed valves where multiples of the same valve were split across the boxes so that each box was a good variety or radio valves. This took ages to do.
All of the boxes still sold to only three buyers. All of the boxes made high prices.
It was also the case that the PX and KT valves did not sell to the usual people because the collectors paid the going rate.

Rob,
Thank you.
We would be very happy to accept your offer of help at Harpenden.

All the best,

Mike...
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 11:51 am   #16
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

I know from my days of toy/model collecting, that the 'early bird' tickets (£20 or so at Shepton Mallet) was often worth ten times that - for the following reasons.

Firstly, you could see the items without having to fight to get to the stalls.

Secondly, you got the opportunity to buy items that would otherwise have been sold hours before. Rare toys are like rare radios - you don't always get multiple chances to buy the harder to find items.


Unfortunately, there are always dealers out there - looking to buy cheap and sell-on at a profit. Although annoying, there is no law against it. It is, however against the spirit of what goes on here. They are called 'scalpers' in the toy trade and I personally detest them.

Saying that - if they have the paying power to buy up all the valves at the radio auctions, how can you going to police whether they sell them on or not? Difficult.

In the past I bought a box of Transistor radios for £3, to get one control knob I needed for my Hacker. I also kept a multimeter the lot contained and a GEC radio that has become one of my favourite 'keepers' as it is so pretty. Is it against the spirit of the Forum for me to ‘out’ the ones I don’t want?

SEAN
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 12:27 pm   #17
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

The commercial realities of a free market seem to be accepted at events like the very well attended Audiojumble. The BVWS/Forum situations are arguably somewhat different as there is a membership and an ethos applicable to both. Unfortunately this is probably much easier to maintain when organisations are at the early stage and most people know each other.

As Mike Barker says he can robustly enforce one particular rule that stall holders have literally signed up to but attempting to make things fair is likely to create more work and can often lead to unintended consequences. By way of illustration only the very helpful Forum suggestion to perhaps consider a 'draw' (and it was just that - not a rule) that has led to a 'hat' being introduced into some sales by third parties on here when I would have thought it was only the vendors perogative to do so.

I suspect that the problem around auctions, whilst frustrating is probably not solveable - despite the frustrations! I couldn't get to the March Golborne but if fights are breaking out then it's time to give up! On the other side most people in the overall radio community seem to me to be unfailingly co-operative and polite, particularly on the Forum.

Like Craig who initiated this helpful discussion, I'm not trying to grind any axes or make specific criticisms. I get to very few auctions and haven't bought anything on here recently so self interest does not apply!

Dave W

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Old 24th Apr 2012, 8:26 pm   #18
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that the BVWS auctions were intended for members, not for dealers to sell on outside BVWS, for profit (obviously things bought may not be kept as they are forever by buyers - passing on privately isn't professional dealing). If lots are bought purely for resale it surely undermines the whole thing. I could do it - what a good idea! Accepted, funds must be raised, and volunteer effort is hugely appreciated, but it's not just about fundraising - I would pay more on the door if I knew I wouldn't have to compete with professionals - circulating parts and sets for members is surely also at the heart of these events.
At the last Harpenden there appeared initially total chaos in the hall, and, coming in from the rain, which was also much appreciated, I at first simply walked into the stalls area, as the side doors were open, and the thing appeared to be in full swing. I was most surprised when I found the B&B in the foyer, as I had my hands full, and heard that folk were saying you couldn't go in!
Thefts from auctions are a major problem, and I have some experience of this. At a local recycling centre auction recently items were going missing from boxes. I was after a camera, and found the lens had gone when, fortunately I checked before the bidding. If knobs are vanishing, then other things must be vanishing too. If you bid for a box of components, and found the thing you wanted missing, you would be pretty fed up, and probably stop bothering. Surely it's not a big issue to put vulnerable lots where they are more visible? The valves were under the table where you had to crawl to inspect .... this isn't meant as criticism of the excellent helpers... it's FEEDBACK ... hope it is taken this way!
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 9:02 am   #19
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

I have bought valves and many other items at BVWS auctions over the past few years.
In fact, at the recent Harpenden I bought one tray full plus some pip-tops. (The latter, being both valuable and vulnerable were on Mikes table).
The tray wasnt one of the expensive lots, but did contain three valves I had been seeking.

On the other hand, at a couple of recent WB auctions, two friends and I shared a table to dispose of our surplus.
Some of which, I am sure, probably originated at other BVWS auctions. prices were deliberately low, as the object was to dispose of things, hopefully covering costs, rather than make a profit.
So, that "recycles" some of the auction lots.

( I don't know about selling before the doors open, We barely had time to unload and unpack everything before the crowd came in!)

Overall, I think the present system is excellent, and could hardly be improved. I have been to other, professional, auctions that are far less well organised.

As for theft, it seems to be a common problem in all areas today.
At a club/society event where everyone is a member, one has to assume that everyone is honest. Fortunately, the vast majority are.
It is sad that the few let the side down, but it IS just a few, and, from my experience, the vast majority of members are honest and can be trusted.

Mike and team do an excellent job, and I wouldn't like to see any changes, expecially any that added to their workload, or reduced the quantity and variety of lots we are able to obtain (or not!)
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 10:53 am   #20
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Default Re: Valves at BVWS auctions available for "all" members

A dealer has to buy cheaply, so they can make a profit. If a private buyer cannot outbid a dealer then, IMHO, they simply aren't bidding high enough

David
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