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Old 10th Jun 2020, 8:28 pm   #41
gramophone1
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the information.

I will test the AT with the Yamaha over the next couple of days, if I can find a single length of cable to use as a grounding wire.

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Old 10th Jun 2020, 8:32 pm   #42
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

There's a lot of features packed into your Yamaha. I'm surprised to find Phono inputs in an Atmos AV unit, and, at this mid-price point. However, it will be sure to use the latest Chipsets (your reference to "cheap parts" does not really apply here) and I have a hunch that the RIAA stage in this might perform a tad better than the one built into your turntable. I can't work out from Yamaha's specification if there's a "Tone Bypass" feature that allows you to hear your vinyl straight through the stereo channels and (mercifully) "Gizmos-Free". Why not do the comparisom with the deck pre-amp and let us know you get on?
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 9:15 pm   #43
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

Yes you can listen in stereo. It has a pure direct function, which switches off all the digital processing gizmos, to give you as pure a stereo signal as possible.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 9:31 pm   #44
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

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Any further thoughts, suggestions, recommendations are most welcome.
My advice is twofold. First, compare the phono stage built into the turntable with the stage in the Yamaha. If you can’t hear any difference then there is no guarantee you will hear the benefit of a different external stage. Secondly, the microline (ML) stylus for the AT VM95 cartridge is very good indeed. I never thought a stylus would make such a difference. This might be a better way of spending your money.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 10:21 pm   #45
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

HI Mark, I know i can upgrade the stylus on that AT Cartridge. So of course, that is always an option at some point in the future.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 10:38 pm   #46
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

I am familiar with both the turntable and the Yamaha receiver. I would therefore say that,yes you can do better then the unit built into the deck which really is only of ‘get you going’ standard. However, the Yamaha’s phono stage is pretty decent and would certainly be an upgrade on the AT’s.

Frankly. I wouldn’t bother going any higher than this as, without wishing to sound mean, you’ll reach the limits of the turntable fairly quickly!
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 10:59 pm   #47
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

Its not mean at all, just sound advice. I will certainly try the Yamaha phono stage over the next few days.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 3:37 pm   #48
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

I used the AT turntable today through the Yamaha's internal phono preamp, and got a really nice surprise. The AT sounds much better using it this way. The very first thing I noticed was how much quieter the AT sounds through the Yamaha phono pre amp. It sounded fuller, and smoother. The difference in the sound was subtle, but noticeable. Very enjoyable to listen to indeed.

I am really thankful for all the advice you have all given. It has saved me a few quid, as I have no need to purchase a separate phono stage.


All comments welcome
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 3:56 pm   #49
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

I wouldn't suggest that you are imagining the difference between the two preamps, but sound reproduction becomes highly subjective once it get out of the analytical lab, and people are very suggestible for a number of psychological reasons. (I include myself in that statement.)

What matters is that you have found a solution that you find satisfying and that works for you.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 4:14 pm   #50
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I wouldn't suggest that you are imagining the difference between the two preamps...
And nor should you, because, as has been said, the Yamaha's preamp is a better unit, so it's inevitably going to sound better.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 4:21 pm   #51
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

It will measure better in a lab, but it's a subjective judgement as to whether it actually sounds better to an individual listener. There have been lots of strange results from blind tests.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 5:33 pm   #52
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

I would say both Paul and Adam (beobloke) have valid points.
Everything is subjective to some extent, and that's before we complicate life with room acoustics and speaker quality etc! Nuff said.

Ok I can second the great value of the AT VM95** range, well worth the extra few quid over its predecessor. I have a little used AT95E to compare with my VM95SH which is the top of the range, I cant say for sure but I have a feeling theres not a lot of difference between the AT and VM electrically although only AT know the facts here. It's useful that the VM and AT stylus assemblies are actually interchangeable if they look slightly odd in the wrong housing, it did give a chance to do a sort of A_B comparison and as I also am lucky enough to have a couple of decks that use a similar rega arm then I feel the comparisons are valid. Also the VM range have nice threaded inserts for the mounting screws, no fiddly nuts.
The difference between the very adequate 95E stylus and the SH stylus is quite marked and noticeable between both cartridge bodies, unsurprisingly I felt both styli worked best in their dedicated bodies but it wasn't that far different.
Therefore I'd heartily recommend the new VM range and you can start with the VM95C and that's pretty much in AT91 territory, and then as your pocket and ears dictate you can improve the performance, should you actually feel the need...….
I haven't heard the ML stylus for slightly less than the SH but I'd not be surprised to find a lot will prefer that stylus to the smoother in the HF SH which may lack a bit of "life" some of us like a more toppy sound.
bearing in mind that my main cartridge is an ortofon 2M bronze, and it definitely does sound better by a noticeable margin to the AT VM95, I honestly don't think it sounds twice the price better and if I was only able to afford the AT VM95, I'd be very content and enjoy my LP collection just as much

A.

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Old 11th Jun 2020, 5:44 pm   #53
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I know i can upgrade the stylus on that AT Cartridge.
Probably your best bet, electronics is relatively easy at audio compared to the mechanical end bits, cartridge and 'speakers.

For example sound at 10kHz has a wavelength of about 35mm in electronics (vaguely the speed of light) that is about 8GHz, not trivial at all. Apart from complete blunders the electronics are the very least of the problem.
 
Old 11th Jun 2020, 6:02 pm   #54
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

The AT95E is a pretty cheap'n'cheerful cartridge and stylus, though fine at its price point. I wonder how much benefit the OP would get from an upgraded stylus in this deck and arm though. As I said in one of my previous posts, the upgrade treadmill is beckoning here.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 6:59 pm   #55
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

I think it is ok to upgrade within reason. AT picked this cartridge so customers can upgrade the stylus. You can't adjust the height of the tonearm on this turntable , so your stuck with the cartridge supplied. Upgrading the stylus is the only real option, and some of them are fairly expensive (for my pockets anyway) but it is nice to have that option.

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Old 11th Jun 2020, 7:02 pm   #56
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

Another way of putting it:

A 10kHz sound has a wavelength of about 35mm travelling as a mechanical vibration through free air.

Turn that acoustical signal into an electrical one and it will have a wavelength travelling electrically along a normal wire of around 18km assuming PVC insulation. With wires on their own, the speed will come up close to the speed of light and the wavelength will be 30km.

Electrical signals on wires are about a million times faster than sound in air.

As a consequence, the size of cables and things like that are utterly insignificant if they are domestic sort of run lengths.

THis speed difference gives you the freedom to do things with electrical audio signals which would not be good were those signals being conveyed mechanically.

Some of the audio pundits want electrical things constructing as if they were handling mechanical vibrations, not electrical ones. They really haven't grasped the difference. What's being out by a factor of a million between friends. So when you see speaker cables which would tow a ship, or jump start its engines and people getting all hot under the collar about reflections, they're miles out. Thousands of miles out versus the length of finger.

Cartridges and loudspeakers are where signals actually are mechanical and sizes do indeed matter.

In the purely electrical areas mechanical constructions and sizes that look right to an eye with a mechanical viewpoint will be wrong. It's acompletely different world.

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Old 11th Jun 2020, 9:54 pm   #57
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The AT95E is a pretty cheap'n'cheerful cartridge and stylus, though fine at its price point. I wonder how much benefit the OP would get from an upgraded stylus in this deck and arm though. As I said in one of my previous posts, the upgrade treadmill is beckoning here.
Indeed Paul, Although there is a definite improvement in the better stylus over the basic elliptical in the "E" version, it's whether the £100+ extra to fit the ML is cost effective in terms of perceived enjoyment or the ability of the turntable and arm to take advantage of it, or should one use the money to buy a few LPs...………...…….

Just a pedantic note Paul, the AT95E is now a discontinued model and AT have streamlined their budget range to the VM body with a range of styli from a basic conical to the Shibata at the top. I think its a clever move by AT and as I said before I'd be happy if it was the only cartridge I could afford.

Cheers.

A.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 11:44 pm   #58
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

Yes, the classic AT91 and AT95E cartridges are no longer made, though as you say the new cartridges are very similar and the styluses are interchangeable.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 11:47 pm   #59
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

What is the difference between an elliptical stylus and a Shibata stylus ?

I have only used conical and elliptical. In my experience a conical stylus does not track as well as an elliptical stylus.
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Old 12th Jun 2020, 12:02 am   #60
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Default Re: Phono Stage Recommendations

The Shibata tip is one of several broadly similar evolutions of the elliptical tip designed to provide a shorter scanning face and thus improve HF resolution. It was initially developed to retrieve the ultrasonic carrier on CD-4 pressings. Generally, once you get beyond a .2x.7 elliptical, the pickup becomes more fussy about record condition and cleanliness.
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