UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 7th Feb 2019, 1:06 pm   #1
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Aspect ratio

Hi,

I at the moment, i have an Xbox plugged into a VCR using a HDMI-SCART converter which gives a picture on my TV.

However, the picture is either too small and doesnÂ’t fill the screen properly, or too big and i lose the edges of the picture.

How do i fix this?

I tried changing the aspect ratio on my VCR from 4:3 and 16:9 and even Auto, but nothing changes.

IÂ’ve gone through the Xbox which just says about changing the ratio on the TV, which I donÂ’t think i could do on a 70s TV.

Any help is appreciated

Edit: Could this be moved to the appropriate section if this isn’t the right one, please

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 2:59 pm   #2
Skywave
Dekatron
 
Skywave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chard, south Somerset, UK.
Posts: 6,233
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Sounds to me as though you need to replace your 1970 vintage TV with a modern LCD / LED type.

Al.
__________________
"Your idea is crazy! But the question is this: is it crazy enough . . . . to be true?" (Niels Bohr)
Skywave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:33 pm   #3
Restoration73
Octode
 
Restoration73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Surbiton, SW London, UK.
Posts: 1,571
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Now you know why all those crt sets end up at the recycling depot ! Of course, some
very late crt sets had a 14;9 or 16:9 tube e.g Sony, Philips, B&O
Restoration73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:40 pm   #4
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 3,944
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywave View Post
Sounds to me as though you need to replace your 1970 vintage TV with a modern LCD / LED type.
... or learn to love the letterbox presentation of a 16:9 picture in a 4:3 screen!
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:47 pm   #5
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywave View Post
Sounds to me as though you need to replace your 1970 vintage TV with a modern LCD / LED type.
That’d be the sensible option, but im not really a fan of the modern tech, i love the older tech and I’ve just got this set working after three months.

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:48 pm   #6
paulsherwin
Moderator
 
paulsherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 17,740
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Most 4:3 TVs don't know anything about aspect ratios and will just display whatever video is coming in. A few of the later ones will letterbox the video if the SCART widescreen pin is asserted.

The VCR will need to process widescreen video to make it suitable for a 4:3 display, either by letterboxing it or zooming it. Most VCRs can't do this, and the few late models that can often do it in unsatisfactory ways. All you can do is ensure the VCR is recording from a 4:3 rather than 16:9 source, but this is easier said than done nowadays as broadcasters have largely abandoned aspect ratio switching and transmit 4:3 material as pillarboxed 16:9 rather than native 4:3. This looks awful on a 4:3 TV.
paulsherwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:57 pm   #7
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restoration73 View Post
Now you know why all those crt sets end up at the recycling depot ! Of course, some
very late crt sets had a 14;9 or 16:9 tube e.g Sony, Philips, B&O
I understand that, but i couldnt chuck one out unless it was really too far gone.

Im not much of a lover of the later sets, im more for the 50s - 80s sets.

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:58 pm   #8
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 3,944
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Most 4:3 TVs don't know anything about aspect ratios and will just display whatever video is coming in. A few of the later ones will letterbox the video if the SCART widescreen pin is asserted.
My comment about letterboxing was based on the comment in the OP that "the picture is either too small and doesn’t fill the screen properly, or too big and i lose the edges of the picture.", which implies either letterboxing or zooming. Is it possible that the HDMI to SCART converter is converting the output for display on a 4:3 screen? Presumably an unprocessed 16:9 signal displayed on a 4:3 screen would appear squashed horizontally - known colloquially as "squashyvision".
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)

Last edited by Dave Moll; 7th Feb 2019 at 4:00 pm. Reason: quote added for clarity
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 3:58 pm   #9
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywave View Post
Sounds to me as though you need to replace your 1970 vintage TV with a modern LCD / LED type.
... or learn to love the letterbox presentation of a 16:9 picture in a 4:3 screen!
Funnily enough, Im watching a film on it right now in the letterbox presentation!
It doesnt bother me too much.

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 4:23 pm   #10
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Most 4:3 TVs don't know anything about aspect ratios and will just display whatever video is coming in. A few of the later ones will letterbox the video if the SCART widescreen pin is asserted.

The VCR will need to process widescreen video to make it suitable for a 4:3 display, either by letterboxing it or zooming it. Most VCRs can't do this, and the few late models that can often do it in unsatisfactory ways. All you can do is ensure the VCR is recording from a 4:3 rather than 16:9 source, but this is easier said than done nowadays as broadcasters have largely abandoned aspect ratio switching and transmit 4:3 material as pillarboxed 16:9 rather than native 4:3. This looks awful on a 4:3 TV.
Through my Xbox the image is too large, but thats due to the xbox having a set Aspect Ratio. Im converting the input from HDMI to SCART but the TV only has a Coax input, so the image is taken from the VCR from coax, which is fed by SCART.

I guess my VCR is zooming in usually as the image is cut off around the edges. Although, as im typing i have a film on DVD being played on the Xbox which is in the letterbox picture.

I should be getting a second VCR today, so this could possibly help.

Its not a huge issue as it only really cuts off a little bit from the sides, but it’d be nice to get it to fit properly.

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 4:33 pm   #11
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 4,252
Default Re: Aspect ratio

I'm wondering if the X Box is the problem? I don't have anything to do with them but I presume that's the video source? Although we have a couple of FS jobs here in Bexhill, I've two 4x3's in my workshop, two in bedrooms and one in the kitchen all with a FV Box source [via a VCR-working or not!]. The aspect ratio can be set via the boxes-no problem. There are members who sometimes obsess about AR correctness to the nth degree but I'm probably a lot less critical than that. I know that some people recommend Play Station Modulators [as well as VCR's] to get a signal into "scart free" sets but you seem to have both in a Daisy Chain unless I'm totally confused

A long time ago, in another arm of the Galaxy, they used to show the occasional 16:9 film to remind us of what we were missing! One Xmas Day it was 2001 A Space Odyssey but with the top and bottom filled in with tinsel. They'd had complaints from a few people who wanted a percentage of the license money back re being "cheated" of the top and bottom of the screen. That was nothing to the uproar the Beeb then faced. Many people were looking forward to seeing Space Odyssey that night. Even a "Christmas" film would be hard to view with such a shiny distraction.

I was always delighted with the odd WS epic broadcast and I even put white markers on my 21" Matsui set to remind me of the cinema proportions. They're still there, in Rammy, to this day. Its a secondary set now but showing 16:9 via FV or sometimes 4:3 [for old times sake!]

Dave W

Last edited by dave walsh; 7th Feb 2019 at 4:39 pm.
dave walsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 4:59 pm   #12
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 3,944
Default Re: Aspect ratio

If the source image is in 16:9 format, there are really only three options for displaying it on a 4:3 screen:
letterbox - in which the 16:9 image is fitted into the squarer display area by inserting black areas above and below
zoom - in which the centre 4:3 area of the image fills the display area
"squashyvision" - in which the 16:9 image is distorted to fit it into a display area of a different shape

If you have the option of either letterbox or zoom, I don't see that you have a problem - or at least not one that can be addressed without obtaining a different-shaped (16:9) screen.

I agree that filling the blank areas with anything other than black is distracting - like the out-of-focus repetition of the central image so often shown either side of vertical mobile 'phone footage (one of my many pet hates).
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 5:01 pm   #13
Andy Doz
Hexode
 
Andy Doz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 348
Default Re: Aspect ratio

As an aside; the latest revision of FrankC's hedghog standards converter firmware allows "stretching" of a 16:9 picture presented at it's input, to 5:4 or 4:3 output ratios.
__________________
andydoz.blogspot.com
Andy Doz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 5:41 pm   #14
1100 man
Heptode
 
1100 man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Ventnor, Isle of Wight, & Great Dunmow, Essex, UK.
Posts: 979
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Hi Andy,
Does the H.Hog zoom in and just loose the edges or stretch the picture vertically and give tall thin people?

I've just been playing with an HDMI to composite box from Ebay and displaying the output on a Thorn 1500.
I can only get 16:9 from my laptop which is displayed, as you would expect, with bands top & bottom.

A further problem comes when viewing something that was originally in 4:3 (eg. vintage TV adds from Youtube). You then get bands at the sides as well. What I need to be able to do is to zoom in to get rid of the border all round.

Is there any hardware or software that allows this to be done?

Cheers
Nick
1100 man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 6:54 pm   #15
rambo1152
Octode
 
rambo1152's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 1,124
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
Presumably an unprocessed 16:9 signal displayed on a 4:3 screen would appear squashed horizontally - known colloquially as "squashyvision".
Anamorphic to those in the know.


Aaron, you mentioned in post #1 that your VHS has an aspect ratio switch, that's quite unusual, but I think I've seen that before, however if I once knew how it worked, I have now forgotten. Anybody?
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
rambo1152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 7:45 pm   #16
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100 man View Post

A further problem comes when viewing something that was originally in 4:3 (eg. vintage TV adds from Youtube). You then get bands at the sides as well. What I need to be able to do is to zoom in to get rid of the border all round.

Is there any hardware or software that allows this to be done?
This is a problem im facing, too. Anything old ive got from youtube has the borders at the sides, and a few have borders all around. IÂ’ve been on youtube and had a look to see if the same videos have the borders, which they do.

Some videos, for example, “Queen - Killer Queen Top Of The Pops 1974” has borders all around on a 16:9 screen, making the actual footage 4:3. Theoretically, couldnt these borders be removed giving a full 4:3 screen on the TV screen?

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 7:46 pm   #17
SiriusHardware
Nonode
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 2,684
Default Re: Aspect ratio

INH, Exactly what sort of Xbox do you have there? Not the original Xbox as that never had HDMI output, I assume you are talking about some variant of the Xbox 360?

The proprietary video port next to the HDMI output on a 360 can output a range of signals for which you merely have to have the right connecting lead.

They were supplied as standard with an analogue 'Component' (YPbPr) video output lead but you can also obtain a 'VGA' lead to connect the 360 to the VGA input on a monitor (or TV which has such a 'PC' input) - that's by far the best connection method to get a crisp, high resolution picture if you happen not to have a display with an HDMI input.

You can also get an 'AV' output lead for the Xbox 360 which is your standard definition composite video + stereo audio lead, and that comes with a SCART plug shaped block which has AV sockets on the back and a SCART male on the other face to plug into a TV. This last connection method is the best connection method for your old TV but will waste the image quality available from the Xbox - a lot of in game text will be unreadable on an SD display.
SiriusHardware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 7:51 pm   #18
paulsherwin
Moderator
 
paulsherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 17,740
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Nick, your problem with Youtube 4:3 material is that the digital stream isn't using the native 4:3 AR but is displaying a pillarboxed 4:3 image in a 16:9 frame. As I said earlier, this looks *awful* on 4:3 TVs and there isn't much you can do about it given the standard AR manipulations available. As I said earlier, it's become an increasing problem as broadcasters have avoided the additional costs of AR switching and just broadcast 4:3 as pillarboxed 16:9.
paulsherwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 7:54 pm   #19
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
Presumably an unprocessed 16:9 signal displayed on a 4:3 screen would appear squashed horizontally - known colloquially as "squashyvision".
Anamorphic to those in the know.


Aaron, you mentioned in post #1 that your VHS has an aspect ratio switch, that's quite unusual, but I think I've seen that before, however if I once knew how it worked, I have now forgotten. Anybody?
Yes it does, its on the menu.

The photos attached are of the screen when it should’ve changed to the according AR but didnt...

Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	FA6C6853-4ED2-4B64-9774-E9E8020DC385.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	89.1 KB
ID:	177959   Click image for larger version

Name:	16A3F480-1BDD-4AD6-A83A-D34E4ACE8DE3.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	44.9 KB
ID:	177960   Click image for larger version

Name:	A9EFC75E-8623-4801-A392-4DE2622E85F5.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	51.2 KB
ID:	177961  
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2019, 8:18 pm   #20
19Seventy7
Heptode
 
19Seventy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 620
Default Re: Aspect ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
INH, Exactly what sort of Xbox do you have there? Not the original Xbox as that never had HDMI output, I assume you are talking about some variant of the Xbox 360?

The proprietary video port next to the HDMI output on a 360 can output a range of signals for which you merely have to have the right connecting lead.

They were supplied as standard with an analogue 'Component' (YPbPr) video output lead but you can also obtain a 'VGA' lead to connect the 360 to the VGA input on a monitor (or TV which has such a 'PC' input) - that's by far the best connection method to get a crisp, high resolution picture if you happen not to have a display with an HDMI input.

You can also get an 'AV' output lead for the Xbox 360 which is your standard definition composite video + stereo audio lead, and that comes with a SCART plug shaped block which has AV sockets on the back and a SCART male on the other face to plug into a TV. This last connection method is the best connection method for your old TV but will waste the image quality available from the Xbox - a lot of in game text will be unreadable on an SD display.
Hi, I do have an Xbox 360, which I haven't used as of yet due to not being able to get online at the moment, so I've borrowed an Xbox one. I can connect using a composite output, but the VCR I have doesn't have composite in, only SCART and Aerial in and RF out.

I understand that games wont be as high quality, but that doesn't bother me as I don't play them a lot so it's not a issue really. So if I were to use the AV output, would I get a clearer display or the same?

Thanks
19Seventy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:57 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018, Paul Stenning.