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Old 30th Jan 2019, 2:23 am   #1
jasejames
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Default Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

I have a Sanyo Betacord VTC5000 which I purchased second-hand, and have been using to transfer some old tapes.

I used to own a few of these units (and similar later versions) in the 80s and 90s so I'm aware of the issues these things have with idler wheels etc.

This one is acting a little weirdly however. When I bought it it seemed to be OK, but one day the reel motor belt snapped. I did think at that point to order a belt and idler kit for it. On finding that the idlers werent available I instead bought AVBELT56 and AVBELT60 from CPC. The latter was too loose, however the former seemed OK and so I fitted it.

The recorder is working OK, except for one issue; when cold it really struggles to rewind tapes near the start (I know this was an issue with these and indeed one of my 1980s one operated like this for many years and never got worse). It sometimes eats tapes when in this condition as well. I can get around this by winding a tape for a minute or so then rewind back to the start, whereupon the VCR works just fine for hours, only to return to the weak state after being left for several hours.

I don't recall whether this is a direct result of the new belt, or if it may have been like this immediately before the original belt broke.

Would this be caused by the new belt being too tight, or is it the motor/idler wheel becoming weak? I suspect the idler isn't slipping excessively as you can hear the motor straining when the rewind is weak, which I don't recall happening on the old recorder.

If it's the belt, can anyone recommend a good service kit for these, given the apparent lack of parts availability in 2019?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 9:48 am   #2
collisr
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Hi.

I've never had an issue with AVBELT56 on this model - I'm not sure there is a better one. Might be worth looking at :
http://www.colin99.co.uk/extras/reel...sanyo_beta.htm

especially the "motor torque improvement mod". I find that pretty much all VTC5000s need this now to give extra "umph" to the reel motor (which also helps pull the tape back into the cassette on STOP - avoiding "tape nip". This might be all you need and is quite simple to implement (assuming your idler and idler tyre is in decent nick)

R.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 12:12 pm   #3
jasejames
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Thankyou for the reply. I have seen that site before, time to buy in some parts

It would make sense that the motor is lacking in torque from the symptoms I've seen.

If this fails, and thinking ahead here, is there a solution out there to the lack of new idler tyres for this machine? Does someone have a stash of NOS parts kicking around, or is it possible to get them refurbished (or use something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/MG-Chemical...dp/B008O9X3KS?). Are compatible motors readily available?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 2:25 pm   #4
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

No problem.

I find that "rubber renue" products can give some further (limited) life to belts/tyres/rollers, but they don't usually give permanent solutions. Some sellers on "the bay" do still sell VTC5000 idler tyres, although I couldn't see any on there at the moment.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 3:09 pm   #5
jasejames
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Ah, I've just realised that the complete idler assembly shouldn't be necessary for this application -- it's just an "IT-9" tyre that's needed, and that seems to be commonly available on-line I think at very low prices -- presumably it just fits around the plastic pulley.

If I can't get this thing working right, the torque fix doesn't rectify the problem and as you've confirmed the AVBELT56 is OK, I will source one of these. Nothing to lose right?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 4:12 pm   #6
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

And I have bought an IT-9. At the end of the day it's 7 ordered from the US, and is the correct tyre as far as I can see (not the overall assembly). Even if I never use it I'm not going to lose any sleep over that sort of money and if/when I sell the recorder on I can legitimately say that with the tyre, belt and torque mod applied, the VCR has had a "short service" and assuming it then works well, it should continue to do so for a while yet.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 4:59 pm   #7
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Yes, the tyre on the lower idler comes off and can be/should be replaced. Certainly worth a go.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 5:32 pm   #8
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

It could also be the brush and contacts in the reel motor are getting low or even have a bit of debris zapping the power a bit. You can open these up to check but it is tricky if you've never attempted this.
The reel torque upgrade is worth it but if the right spool spins enough to pull all the tape in it shouldn't be needed there is a reel torque upgrade too. This has nothing to do with R49 and D6 (if this diode has a green direction print then it will need the upgrade ,if not then it's been done and will be a black print) but helps to over come low reel torque during play.
Also the spool edges the rubber idler contacts get very slippery after time and I recommend refreshing both of these with a suitable needle only. You will feel the difference when sliding your finger over the refreshed part and the shiny area and, like a cars clutch, the tyre will slip if not done.
The AV56 is perfect for these and I use them all the time. The AV60 is perfect for the 'M' and 'NX' series loading ring belt's. The AV63 being the perfect loading ring part for the 5000/5150 and 6500.

As for idler tyres. If they are not cracked or hard then you can refresh them with 120 grit all over. This makes them like new. If they are going hard or even have cracks ,then they will need replacing. This seems more common on the VTC NX100 as I've seen a few that are rock solid .Usually from a heavy smoking household too, which seems to speed this event up.
Also if you ever get a tiny piece of tape scrunched under the flap on eject on the top loaders, the reel brakes and slider need removing and cleaning of oil (which many put everywhere and slow down this braking action) and also lightly refresh the rubber brakes like the idler tyres. Make sure too the metal areas are not bent out of shape. Yes I've seen it all.
These Sanyo's are a great machine and very well built ,but sadly many have been badly neglected, stored in unsuitable areas and some have also been inside them who really shouldn't have been and made things a lot worse.

Good luck with it and let us know how it goes........................Kevin
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 1:49 am   #9
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Thankyou very much for the detailed post, this is all very helpful and I will of course update.

I have ordered a new idler (which I won't use until it's clear the current one isn't doing its job any more), along with R49 and D6. I will perform the torque upgrade first then work through the other suggestions.

I think this particular unit is unmolested and in good condition. There was "honest dust" on the boards etc when I took the top off and no fingermarks etc, and the belt that snapped looked like it may have been the original. I've not experienced any issues with the tape being slightly loose on eject or anything like that, so I think this is a good candidate to work with (carefully as I don't want to make things worse myself).

I'd rather not have to pull the reel motor apart if I don't have to; I've pulled cassette motors apart in the past and it's never ended well lol. Thankfully they are usually ten-a-penny. Are you suggesting that replacement brushes are available for these motors?

BTW one thing I've not yet been able to work out is how to take out the cassette loader to get to the reels underneath. That wasn't a problem when replacing the belt as it was possible to fettle the belt around the idler, but if I'm going to start taking the idler assembly out this method won't work. Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to sort this? As I say I am loathe to start experimenting with an essentially-working unit that seems in good order generally.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 8:00 pm   #10
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Hi.

To access the idler, I remove the 3 screws on the right of the carriage and then slide the housing left and up and leave it doubled back on itself resting on the video head metal cover. You will probably needs magnetic screwdriver to catch the screws as the two nearest the front can only be got by stabbing past the spring that holds the loading tray in place. I think you can take the whole lot out but the screws on the left are a right pig to get at.

( And I learnt that from sanbeta Kevin !)
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 11:15 pm   #11
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

I use the method of removing the circlips/ E clips on each side and pivot it out of the way, this allows access without removing the awkward screws lower down.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 2:34 pm   #12
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Smile Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasejames View Post
Thankyou very much for the detailed post, this is all very helpful and I will of course update.

I have ordered a new idler (which I won't use until it's clear the current one isn't doing its job any more), along with R49 and D6. I will perform the torque upgrade first then work through the other suggestions.

I think this particular unit is unmolested and in good condition. There was "honest dust" on the boards etc when I took the top off and no fingermarks etc, and the belt that snapped looked like it may have been the original. I've not experienced any issues with the tape being slightly loose on eject or anything like that, so I think this is a good candidate to work with (carefully as I don't want to make things worse myself).

I'd rather not have to pull the reel motor apart if I don't have to; I've pulled cassette motors apart in the past and it's never ended well lol. Thankfully they are usually ten-a-penny. Are you suggesting that replacement brushes are available for these motors?

BTW one thing I've not yet been able to work out is how to take out the cassette loader to get to the reels underneath. That wasn't a problem when replacing the belt as it was possible to fettle the belt around the idler, but if I'm going to start taking the idler assembly out this method won't work. Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to sort this? As I say I am loathe to start experimenting with an essentially-working unit that seems in good order generally.
Hi

The motor brush contacts are not available but that will also let you know how much the motor has been used.
The commutator area (that the brush parts make contact with) in can also wear unevenly (depending on the pressure and how well they were assembled when new) and this can cause flat spot's ,(making the motor unresponsive unless given a light push)but is thankfully rare. The top bearing (where the motor haft goes into) also benefits a very tiny drop of oil as this can get dry to and you will hear the motor pick up if so. That can be done in situ.
To remove the cassette cradle remove the three screws to the right(at the base of the cassette holder bracket in silver). One larger at the front and two the same size further back. You will need a magnetized screwdriver with the right sized crosshead (Philips ) screwdriver too other wise you will get frustrated....Trust me.
When those are removed, lightly pull the popped up hatch to the right to allow the metal rod to slide out of the hole to the left and disengage from the geared part. It's should then allow you to lift it up and pivot backwards out of the way.
I am pretty thorough with these and remove spools and brake slider too as these have been sitting for over 20 odd years and used before then, many without any kind of work done at all so do benefit a lot, and it makes using them fuss/hassel free. Which is what we all want.
Also If your tape spools have slots in them and a pivoting right hand tape end sensor you may have issues with a sticking left spool clutch (which on the earlier models was in one piece and prone to this) which will affect the back tension and cause extra wear and picture defects .Sanyo upgraded this half way through the 5000's production run and the later ones were fault free and utilised to the very end of their Beta vcr production. If the right hand tape end sensor is stationary then you have the newer style. For anyone wondering you can change both spools out for the later style (without slots ) which has a separate felt pad clutch base part. (Rob Collis.This is what the issue was with yours that you sent back:shrug

For the record to, IF the reel motor and associated parts have been renewed and refreshed /lubed as stated a L750 should FF and REW in around 4 mins to around 4 mins 15 seconds.If it's over 5 mins 30 seconds it's struggling and not in top shape.
So if anyone who sells these machines quotes a FF and REW time make sure it's with an L750 tape as shorter lengths will always be faster.

Hope this helps........................Kevin
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 7:11 pm   #13
jasejames
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Thanks again for the comments, hopefully I will now be able to remove the carriage. Funnily enough I did check the rewind time a couple of weeks back -- the weak unit I had in the early 1990s which I never did anything with rewound in around 6 minutes, which I knew at the time was pretty poor. This one is just over four (when warmed up) for an L750 so that would suggest it's generally in fairly good shape, which is good news.

Still haven't received my parts yet so it'll be next weekend now before I do anything with this I think.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 1:54 am   #14
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

One other thing regarding FF and REW times. The always laced beta models will be slower.
The Sanyo VTC 53/400 quotes 'within 6 mins' and will be slower than the unlacing Sanyo's (usually around 5 min to 5m 30s from the ones I've worked on). This also goes for the Sony models who always quote their fast wind times with a L500 (2 h 10min) length tape as it's quicker.

Your motor sounds like it's OK in that area which, like you say, is good.

.....Kevin
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 1:55 am   #15
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Smile Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyrocket2 View Post
I use the method of removing the circlips/ E clips on each side and pivot it out of the way, this allows access without removing the awkward screws lower down.
I have tried that but sometimes they want to be awkward when trying to get them back on again and fly off just as you get them in place.

.....Kevin
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 9:02 pm   #16
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

The tyre on the idler can be removed and turned inside out it not easy but is quick fix for this problem i have had worn drum cause this problem too.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 5:08 am   #17
jasejames
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5000 problems when cold only

I will be looking at this in the coming days however I did time the VCR just now. From cold it basically cannot rewind a tape that's near the start at all. However winding said tape to the end takes around 5 and a half minutes.

Rewinding the tape back to the start takes 4 minutes 30 and the machine is pretty consistent at that speed from that point onwards.

I have set the recorder off with no tape inwhen warmed up in ff/rew and I have to say that there seems to be a shedload of torque present. I will try that again when it is cold. I'm starting to think the idler just needs roughing up as has been said, as I find it hard to believe that a tired motor would fire into what seems to be near 100% condition within a couple of minutes... Perhaps the old belt was providing enough slippage to mask this condition previously?

Torque mod to be applied tomorrow hopefully.
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