UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 14th Sep 2022, 4:11 pm   #1
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 12,195
Default EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

I have vague memories of a TV antenna promoted by EMI in the early days of broadcast TV - it was a long-wire (meaning several wavelengths long) horizontal wire which you were meant to arrange so that it was radially oriented as a ' spoke on a wheel ' with the transmitter at the centre of the hub.

I guess it was a sort of Beveridge antenna..

But was it terminated by a proper resistance and quarter wave end?! And how effective would such an antenna be?!
__________________
"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream" -Edgar Allan Poe.
G6Tanuki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2022, 4:44 pm   #2
peter_scott
Dekatron
 
peter_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Edinburgh, UK.
Posts: 3,202
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

If it's this one it looks as if it separates the radio and television aerials.

Peter
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HMV 900 Advert April 1937 T&SWW.jpg
Views:	205
Size:	104.6 KB
ID:	264734  
peter_scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2022, 9:20 pm   #3
rambo1152
Dekatron
 
rambo1152's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 3,556
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

The transmitting aerial at Alexandra Palace consisted wire elements attached to insulators.
Described as eight pairs of push-pull end-fed dipoles with reflectors.

Pg195
https://www.bbceng.info/additions/20...V%20System.pdf

Oddly for a document that describes the station in minuet detail, there is no diagram of the aerial.
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
rambo1152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2022, 9:59 pm   #4
peter_scott
Dekatron
 
peter_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Edinburgh, UK.
Posts: 3,202
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

http://marconiintelevision.pbworks.c...a%20Palace.pdf
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Aerial Construction.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	68.8 KB
ID:	264741  

Last edited by peter_scott; 14th Sep 2022 at 10:12 pm.
peter_scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2022, 10:17 pm   #5
emeritus
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 4,947
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

The Ally Pally transmitter aerial was the subject of its own illustrated booklet, which possibly explains its absence from the posted document describing the station. I posted a scan of the aerial booklet on this forum some years ago but don't recall which thread. I couldn't find it just now using the forum search, so I guess it's gone. I do still have the original booklet, and its scan, but the scan is backed up somewhere on my old computer and the booklet is in a box somewhere in the shed.

Last edited by emeritus; 14th Sep 2022 at 10:44 pm. Reason: typos, mention of forum search added
emeritus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 6:47 am   #6
wd40addict
Octode
 
wd40addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stevenage, Herts. UK.
Posts: 1,332
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...7&postcount=10
wd40addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 7:46 am   #7
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 12,195
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Some interesting antennas there, but the one I am thinking of was a receiving antenna for domestic use... A long wire, horizontal, fed using coax cable. Assuming that you had a long enough garden you arranged for the wire to have the far end pointing towards the transmitter...
__________________
"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream" -Edgar Allan Poe.
G6Tanuki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 8:14 am   #8
murphyv310
Dekatron
 
murphyv310's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK.
Posts: 5,160
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

End fed Antennas are high impedance so a very poor match to 75 ohm coax. A balun would need to be constructed around 47:1 of course that's dependent on the length of the long wire.
__________________
Cheers,
Trevor.
2M0GZQ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member
murphyv310 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 8:15 am   #9
peter_scott
Dekatron
 
peter_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Edinburgh, UK.
Posts: 3,202
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
Some interesting antennas there, but the one I am thinking of was a receiving antenna for domestic use... A long wire, horizontal, fed using coax cable. Assuming that you had a long enough garden you arranged for the wire to have the far end pointing towards the transmitter...
Are you sure it's not this one that you are thinking about. One of the three lengths is 5'.

Then in 1950 they produced a simple indoor one that might be the 5' section without the radio aerial.

Peter
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HMV 900 Advert April 1937 T&SWWa.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	48.0 KB
ID:	264748   Click image for larger version

Name:	EMI Indoor Aerial.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	77.4 KB
ID:	264749  

Last edited by peter_scott; 15th Sep 2022 at 8:23 am.
peter_scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 8:24 am   #10
AdrianH
Octode
 
AdrianH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Blackburn with Darwen, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 1,331
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

I have the book 'Television Principles and Practice' by F.J. Camm dated 1955 and under the aerials section is a 'Tilted wire aerial' described as A long wire of highly directional properties which requires space for erection. Not a lot of details about it.

Adrian
__________________
Asking questions and learning, or trying to!
Youtube EF91Valve
AdrianH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 10:35 am   #11
Panrock
Nonode
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,345
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

On 8th February 2007, Ray Cooper wrote, in the thread "The earliest television aerials":

"The 'tilted wire' aerial - in effect, a vertical half-rhombic - could give very good results IF you had enough real-estate to erect one, and IF you could point it in the right direction. Those conditions satisfied, they could be a good candidate for home-construction. "

I have a picture of this arrangement somewhere, taken from an old magazine, but I'm dmned now if I can find it!

What sort of gain would this type of aerial have had on Ch.1?

Steve

Last edited by Panrock; 15th Sep 2022 at 10:46 am. Reason: word order
Panrock is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 10:59 am   #12
AdrianH
Octode
 
AdrianH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Blackburn with Darwen, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 1,331
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

A quick search on wireless history site. and there is an article in Wireless world. 1939 31st August page 206.

Adrian
__________________
Asking questions and learning, or trying to!
Youtube EF91Valve
AdrianH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 4:39 pm   #13
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 12,195
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianH View Post
A quick search on wireless history site. and there is an article in Wireless world. 1939 31st August page 206.

Adrian
That's closer to what In recall, but what I remember was a horizontal wire.

If anything it was like the 'windom' or 'off-centre-fed' antenna; the memory's not 100% but if you were to put up a wire that was quite a few wavelengths long, then break it 1/4-wavelength from one end and attach your feeder across the break - looking at details of long-wire antennas in the Moxon book, the feedpoint woiuld be somewhere between 50 and 100 Ohms impedance, and the polar diagram looks distinctly gainy along the axis of the wire [unlike a classic dipole where the gain is greatest at 90 degrees to the axis].
__________________
"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream" -Edgar Allan Poe.
G6Tanuki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 6:55 pm   #14
rambo1152
Dekatron
 
rambo1152's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 3,556
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

The bit I have difficulty with is "The far end of the wire pointing towards the TX". Wouldn't that be a null point?
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
rambo1152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Sep 2022, 9:41 pm   #15
emeritus
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 4,947
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Here's a description of how to make a tilted wire TV loft aerial from Odhams "Radio Television and Electrical Repairs" book, 3rd edition, 1956. It does say that the aerial should slope towards the transmitter, and each half should measure 5' 4 1/2", making it about 10' 9" long overall, and specified twin feeder. By the time the book was published, Belling- Lee for one had discontinued 75 Ohm twin feeder.

Because the aerial slopes, the end-on null points dowards towards the ground, not towards the transmitter. The missing introductory paragraph on the previous page, which I haven't posted, says:

"Fairly close to the transmitter, and where there is little interference, no reflector is needed and a " (continues with page 296 "cheap aerial ....).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20220915_221659_001-1.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	56.3 KB
ID:	264783   Click image for larger version

Name:	20220915_223159-1.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	61.1 KB
ID:	264784  

Last edited by emeritus; 15th Sep 2022 at 10:01 pm.
emeritus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Sep 2022, 8:05 am   #16
Andrew2
Octode
 
Andrew2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dukinfield, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 1,987
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
The bit I have difficulty with is "The far end of the wire pointing towards the TX". Wouldn't that be a null point?
If the wire was several wavelengths long, it would become more 'end fire' than 'broadside', a la Beverage (although without the end termination). I doubt most ordinary people would have room for it though!
__________________
Andy G1HBE.
Andrew2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Sep 2022, 12:09 pm   #17
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 12,195
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
The bit I have difficulty with is "The far end of the wire pointing towards the TX". Wouldn't that be a null point?
If the wire was several wavelengths long, it would become more 'end fire' than 'broadside', a la Beverage (although without the end termination). I doubt most ordinary people would have room for it though!
Yes, it would be operating as an end-fire antenna. The Moxon book has some polar diagrams, for antennas up to 2-lambda long and some longer; there's even acknowledgement that the directly end-on null is probably a lot less in practice than the equations would predict.

I've been looking around at places like http://www.earlytelevision.org/ which has some good examples of pre-and post-WWII TV antennas, and looking at the 1930s records of amateur experimentatioin on the then-permitted 56/MC/s band; several operators in the famous Snowdon trials were using end-fed antennas but I haven't been able to fond evidence of my V Long-Wire.

[An incidental question: all the photos on earlytelevision.org show the US VHF antennas to be horizontally-polarised, but the UK ones are vertically-polarised. Why did the UK adopt vertical polarisation]
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	mooxon1.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	184.2 KB
ID:	264799   Click image for larger version

Name:	moxon2.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	186.5 KB
ID:	264800  
__________________
"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream" -Edgar Allan Poe.
G6Tanuki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Sep 2022, 3:02 pm   #18
peter_scott
Dekatron
 
peter_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Edinburgh, UK.
Posts: 3,202
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quoting from:here:

Peter
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Clipboard01.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	44.1 KB
ID:	264820  
peter_scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Sep 2022, 3:34 pm   #19
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 12,195
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_scott View Post
Quoting from:here:

Peter
Fascinating... must admit, my experience on 50, 70 and 144MHz has been that horizontally-polarised signals give better distance-covering ability. Vertical polarisation makes sense for mobile [handheld walkie-talkie and whip-antenna-on-a-vehicle, working to a vertically-polarised repeater or base-station] - if only because omnidirectional horizontally-polarised antennas are practically difficult to engineer for handheld or vehicle applications.

Horizontal polarisation was used for UK Band-II FM broadcasting.... though from the 1870s there was a move towards slant polarisation so mobile/portable reception was better.
__________________
"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream" -Edgar Allan Poe.
G6Tanuki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Sep 2022, 3:47 pm   #20
Panrock
Nonode
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,345
Default Re: EMI TV end fed wire antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panrock View Post
What sort of gain would this type of aerial have had on Ch.1?
From the Wireless world article, this looks to be the same as an 'H'. Where it excels, however, is in its strongly directional characteristic. In a suitable location it could be much less prone to motor car interference.

Steve
Panrock is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT. The time now is 7:34 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.