Philips turntable in a hurry - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

neutronic · 1st Jul 2018, 9:57 pm

I never noticed it before,but while checking the speed I measured that my Philips 22CG008/00 turntable plays the 33 1/3 rpm records in exactly 59 seconds.(45 rpm is spot on).
But this model has no speed adjustment.
Is this a problem a decent listener will hear or is the deviation too small?
Jard N.

Edward Huggins · 1st Jul 2018, 10:24 pm

A very nice turntable from the golden age of Philips Hi Fi. The speed is well within tolerance....relax and just enjoy the music!

neutronic · 2nd Jul 2018, 9:17 pm

Thank you Edward for your response.
I´m not a very critical listener.

Once I inherited a box with classical L.P.´s and on a cold winter afternoon I played a lot of them:Bach, Beethoven,Mozart etc.
Not too bad although it was not my real taste.
But around dinner-time I saw to my big shame they were all played at 45 rpm instead 33 1/3.
Jard N.

RojDW48 · 3rd Jul 2018, 12:04 am

Wot? Am I mis-reading this? I don't have any 33rpm records that would play in 59secs at 78rpm! How can that be 'well within tolerance'?

Grubhead · 3rd Jul 2018, 12:18 am

I don't really understand the test result!!
A 33rpm record can run up to 30 minutes per side. So how can a 33rpm record last for less than a minute?
Have Philips invented a Warp Speed deck?

teetoon · 3rd Jul 2018, 12:45 am

I took it to mean the turntable does 33 1/3 revolutions in 59 seconds where it should be per minute.

David.

John10b · 3rd Jul 2018, 7:33 am

Yes David I read it the same way, it is one second slow.
Cheers
John

Station X · 3rd Jul 2018, 7:36 am

One second fast?

John10b · 3rd Jul 2018, 7:47 am

Ops it is early, or that is my excuse, yes David you are of course correct.
Cheers
John

John10b · 3rd Jul 2018, 7:48 am

Even Graham.
Cheers
John

ukcol · 3rd Jul 2018, 8:11 am

33.33.. revolutions in 59 seconds equates to 33.89 revolutions in 60. This is about 1.7% fast.

I think someone blessed (or cursed?) with perfect pitch would notice it, as for the rest of us I doubt it.

EDIT

I've have just used Audacity to generate a 1000Hz tone and then a 1017Hz tone and I can easily hear the difference but only because I had the original 1kHz tone in my mind for reference.

RojDW48 · 3rd Jul 2018, 11:39 am

Amraduk · 3rd Jul 2018, 12:31 pm

Hello Colin,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukcol

33.33.. revolutions in 59 seconds equates to 33.89 revolutions in 60. This is about 1.7% fast.

Actually, that's about 1.017% fast, not 1.7%!

Regards,

Dave.

Edward Huggins · 3rd Jul 2018, 1:38 pm

Well now look here - if that speed variation was on a Project Signature 12 turntable, I may have some cause for concern, but if it is on a nice old (45 yrs) Philips budget deck, I would be highly delighted!

ukcol · 4th Jul 2018, 12:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amraduk

Actually, that's about 1.017% fast, not 1.7%!

Er no, but I see where you've gone wrong.

60/59 = 1.01695 (to 5 decimal places) or 1.017 to 3 decimal places.

But we are stating a percentage increase (percentage over speed) and not the ratio of 60 to 59.

60 is 101.7% of 59 or 1.7% greater than 59, (101.7 - 100)

You had me worried for a minute.

Amraduk · 4th Jul 2018, 8:52 am

Hello Colin,

Oops! Sorry about that.

You are, of course, quite right!

Regards,

Dave.

Craig Sawyers · 4th Jul 2018, 10:14 am

1.7% speed difference is about 1/3 of a semitone. As Colin found out by experiment that is easily discernible by doing a comparison one after the other. But only someone with perfect pitch will notice this when listening to music. As has already been said

If an orchestra (or a piano) has tuning errors of 1/3 of a semitone anyone will definitely hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw

neutronic · 4th Jul 2018, 10:27 am

the calculation normally starts with the standard.
The correct time should actually be 60 seconds.
This is the wanted 100%,but in reality it is 59 seconds thus 1 second wrong.
So 1/60 times 100% gives 1.67 off the nominal value
Jard N.

Radio Wrangler · 4th Jul 2018, 11:21 am

In an orchestra or piano, individual notes or individual instruments are tuned um, individually. One thing alone a third of a semitone off will stick out like a sore thumb.

But with the turntable speed error, everything will shift together and it will be somewhat less noticeable. Someone with good pitch won't like it, but it's trivial to what lots of people keep on listening to.

Tolerance varies amazingly.

David

Station X · 4th Jul 2018, 11:52 am

Reminds me of when I had to set the speed of a cassette deck. I can't remember what it was I was playing, but it was some kind of pop music rather than classical stuff. It sounded perfectly OK over quite a range of speed settings. I eventually made a test tape on another machine using an audio generator and a frequency counter. I think the correct setting was at one extreme of the acceptable range.

1st Jul 2018, 9:57 pm	#1
neutronic Pentode Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bergen, North Holland, The Netherlands Posts: 180	Philips turntable in a hurry I never noticed it before,but while checking the speed I measured that my Philips 22CG008/00 turntable plays the 33 1/3 rpm records in exactly 59 seconds.(45 rpm is spot on). But this model has no speed adjustment. Is this a problem a decent listener will hear or is the deviation too small? Jard N.

1st Jul 2018, 10:24 pm	#2
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,328	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry A very nice turntable from the golden age of Philips Hi Fi. The speed is well within tolerance....relax and just enjoy the music! __________________ Edward.

2nd Jul 2018, 9:17 pm	#3
neutronic Pentode Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bergen, North Holland, The Netherlands Posts: 180	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Thank you Edward for your response. I´m not a very critical listener. Once I inherited a box with classical L.P.´s and on a cold winter afternoon I played a lot of them:Bach, Beethoven,Mozart etc. Not too bad although it was not my real taste. But around dinner-time I saw to my big shame they were all played at 45 rpm instead 33 1/3. Jard N.

3rd Jul 2018, 12:04 am	#4
RojDW48 Nonode Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,074	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Wot? Am I mis-reading this? I don't have any 33rpm records that would play in 59secs at 78rpm! How can that be 'well within tolerance'? __________________ '....don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road!' (Bob Dylan)

3rd Jul 2018, 12:18 am	#5
Grubhead Heptode Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 539	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry I don't really understand the test result!! A 33rpm record can run up to 30 minutes per side. So how can a 33rpm record last for less than a minute? Have Philips invented a Warp Speed deck?

3rd Jul 2018, 12:45 am	#6
teetoon Heptode Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Barnstaple, N.Devon, UK. Posts: 557	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry I took it to mean the turntable does 33 1/3 revolutions in 59 seconds where it should be per minute. David.

3rd Jul 2018, 7:33 am	#7
John10b Nonode Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK. Posts: 2,884	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Yes David I read it the same way, it is one second slow. Cheers John

3rd Jul 2018, 7:36 am	#8
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,288	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry One second fast? __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

3rd Jul 2018, 7:47 am	#9
John10b Nonode Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK. Posts: 2,884	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Ops it is early, or that is my excuse, yes David you are of course correct. Cheers John

3rd Jul 2018, 7:48 am	#10
John10b Nonode Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK. Posts: 2,884	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Even Graham. Cheers John

3rd Jul 2018, 8:11 am	#11
ukcol Rest in Peace Join Date: May 2003 Location: Harlaxton, Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 3,944	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry 33.33.. revolutions in 59 seconds equates to 33.89 revolutions in 60. This is about 1.7% fast. I think someone blessed (or cursed?) with perfect pitch would notice it, as for the rest of us I doubt it. EDIT I've have just used Audacity to generate a 1000Hz tone and then a 1017Hz tone and I can easily hear the difference but only because I had the original 1kHz tone in my mind for reference. Last edited by ukcol; 3rd Jul 2018 at 8:20 am.

3rd Jul 2018, 11:39 am	#12
RojDW48 Nonode Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,074	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry __________________ '....don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road!' (Bob Dylan)

3rd Jul 2018, 1:38 pm	#14
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,328	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Well now look here - if that speed variation was on a Project Signature 12 turntable, I may have some cause for concern, but if it is on a nice old (45 yrs) Philips budget deck, I would be highly delighted! __________________ Edward.

4th Jul 2018, 8:52 am	#16
Amraduk Hexode Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK. Posts: 453	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Hello Colin, Oops! Sorry about that. You are, of course, quite right! Regards, Dave.

4th Jul 2018, 10:14 am	#17
Craig Sawyers Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 4,984	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry 1.7% speed difference is about 1/3 of a semitone. As Colin found out by experiment that is easily discernible by doing a comparison one after the other. But only someone with perfect pitch will notice this when listening to music. As has already been said If an orchestra (or a piano) has tuning errors of 1/3 of a semitone anyone will definitely hear it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw

4th Jul 2018, 10:27 am	#18
neutronic Pentode Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bergen, North Holland, The Netherlands Posts: 180	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry the calculation normally starts with the standard. The correct time should actually be 60 seconds. This is the wanted 100%,but in reality it is 59 seconds thus 1 second wrong. So 1/60 times 100% gives 1.67 off the nominal value Jard N.

4th Jul 2018, 11:21 am	#19
Radio Wrangler Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland, UK. Posts: 22,876	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry In an orchestra or piano, individual notes or individual instruments are tuned um, individually. One thing alone a third of a semitone off will stick out like a sore thumb. But with the turntable speed error, everything will shift together and it will be somewhat less noticeable. Someone with good pitch won't like it, but it's trivial to what lots of people keep on listening to. Tolerance varies amazingly. David __________________ Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done

4th Jul 2018, 11:52 am	#20
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,288	Re: Philips turntable in a hurry Reminds me of when I had to set the speed of a cassette deck. I can't remember what it was I was playing, but it was some kind of pop music rather than classical stuff. It sounded perfectly OK over quite a range of speed settings. I eventually made a test tape on another machine using an audio generator and a frequency counter. I think the correct setting was at one extreme of the acceptable range. __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.