Morecambe & Wise programme recovery

[Colourstar]

This is absolutely amazing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technol...ng-a-lost-film

Salvage of lost footage from a reel of film which is turning to gloop and can't be unrolled. An extraordinary achievement. This M&W series was originally made on 625 colour videotape for BBC2 in 1968, but was wiped, leaving a lone b&w 16mm telerecording exported overseas as the only evidence. The audio on the clip incidentally comes from a separate home audio recording of the same show which has been matched up.

Steve

[Sideband]

Amazing! This is where cutting-edge modern technology complements older technology. This probably wouldn't have been possible a just few years ago.

[dave walsh]

Thanks for that Steve, proper vintage "stuff". It's techno-archeology and similar results are achieved with artifacts from underground or undersea these days although it's the long lost media recordings I always find incredibly interesting. I think it maybe results from the frustration of only being able to "catch" TV or radio once [during the broadcast] in my early life and then it [apparently] disappeared. If only there had been more joined up thinking between the Broadcasters and the National Archive back then to keep and preserve more material in the first place. What was done to recover Dr Who and TOTP's in colour from 16mm b+w export copies was also apparently miraculous.

These pesky algorithms are turning out to be as ubiquitous as DNA although this is a much better useage than tracking our lives through "Fleecebook" etc. Why don't we get a Horizon or BBC4 Documentary about the back stage technical triumphs like this one?

I'm also wondering if there is more high brow stuff that doesn't get worked on though? Perhaps the material is not there or the expense involved wouldn't chime with continuously regurgitating a just a few popular names and programs to keep the people happy [Bread and Circus's as the Roman's said].

The great Bob Monkhouse did his very best but like many private ventures, his fabulous widespread film/audio and VCT archive was almost completely lost after his death

His best joke? "They laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian" [knowing defiant look] "Well they're not laughing now!"

Dave W

[Andrew2]

Cor, that's astonishing. The pictures in the clip are far from perfect but the fact that they can get them at all is truly miraculous.

[michamoo]

I am sure with frame by frame digital restoration that film can be improved even further. Hopefully this is still just the first steps.

[dave walsh]

There's a Bob Monkhouse Documentary on Yesterday [CH 19] at the moment showing the depth of his archive. He's just told that joke!

Dave

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

If only there had been more joined up thinking between the Broadcasters and the National Archive back then to keep and preserve more material in the first place... I'm also wondering if there is more high brow stuff that doesn't get worked on though?...Bob Monkhouse did his very best but like many private ventures, his fabulous widespread film/audio and VCT archive was almost completely lost after his death

For one thing, there has only relatively recently been any sort of national media archive. The BIRS (now BLNSA) spent most of the 1950s getting off the ground, and had Patrick Saul been less pigheaded, we might be waiting still. The BFI laboured under a restricted brief for a long time, and MOMI is fairly recent, too. Until mass digital storage became practical, the BBC had to select what it kept or pay for a facilty the size of W1 to keep all its recordings in. So salvage and restoration is the name of the game for much important stuff. And as one working in this field, I can tell you that funding is hard to come by, unless the stuff is mass-market or somebody's particular mission. Some otherwise unknown Kathleen Ferrier recordings were restored because an enterprising label owner stuck her neck out; the premiere of Rubbra's fourth symphony, preserved by the BBC but with execrable wow, was restored because his artistic executor thought it worthwhile; the Goon Show Compendium will run to completion because people still buy it. And so on.

I think it is true to say that most of the Monkhouse material still exists. Access is a different story, about which I'll say nothing.

[dave walsh]

Thanks Ted quite a lot of a useful insight there and I'm sure your overall perspective will be more accurate than most peoples. I suppose I tend to do a comparison with the Smithsonian in the USA and what other foreign agencies
preserved. Post War I presume that Britain, overall, was in no position to prioritise archiving comprehensively or otherwise. Combined with the "intellectual" view that a lot of media output was low brow, transient and not worth preserving, there would be no overall view/policy and as you say, money isn't usually on offer! Not overt neglect or any one's fault, just circumstance perhaps!

The Monkhouse Archive was rescued I know [the BBC4 Doc] but it looked like a close thing. I wish I'd gone to see him now. I recall being impressed when he said in an article that he used a semi-pro Betamax machine [C3?]. The way he was treated by the TV Company and Copyright Authorities was truly strange and shocking. There's more to come on Yesterday I suspect. The treasure trove he built up was a real achievement and legacy for us all I believe.

Dave

[Boom]

I've just watched tonights episode of The Human Jungle from 1965 on TalkingPictures and it was like the video was recorded yesterday. How come these have kept so well yet the - presumably - more commercial Morecambe and Wise videos are in such a sorry state?

[Andrew2]

Originally Posted by Boom

I've just watched tonights episode of The Human Jungle from 1965 on TalkingPictures and it was like the video was recorded yesterday. How come these have kept so well yet the - presumably - more commercial Morecambe and Wise videos are in such a sorry state?

The 'filmed TV series' (stuff like Human Jungle, The Avengers, most of the ITC stuff and so on) were made on film to a high standard (often on 35mm film) and fairly well-kept. Recent restorations have made them look like a million dollars (The Professionals, made on 16mm and allowed to age badly) has been restored to a very high standard and the level of detail in the image is hard to believe. It's so good it's released on Blu-Ray and is a pleasure to watch.
Television shows like Morecambe and Wise were made on videotape and the master recordings were wiped so the tape could be re-used. The recordings we see now are tape-to-film transfers (Telerecordings) made for the export market. The tecnology to do this was pretty poor and the results never look good. And as these transfers were done many years ago, they too have deteriorated since.
I certainly agree about The Human Jungle, it's as clean and crisp as can be.

[G6Tanuki]

It always imporesses me just what can be done these days with digital technology to recover analog recordings.

I feel it's sad that a lot of early 'lowbrow' [how I hate the term] content has been lost: the first decade of Coronation Street would be something I'd pay to get, if only because of how it places and establishes TV in the emerging social history of the time.

[Nuvistor]

How much of modern productions are saved for posterity, think of all those reality TV shows that are made, will they be available in 30 years time?
I am in two minds, for me most are rubbish and not worth the time to watch them, but many do enjoy them and will be nostalgia in 2050.
So what do we save and what do we leave on the “ cutting room floor”?

[percival007]

My goodness that is amazing, many thanks for posting that.

The BBC Research and Development Dept have a very interesting Facebook page which can be found here.........
https://www.facebook.com/BBCResearchAndDevelopment/

I am very happy that part of my License fee goes towards what they are doing and the BBC continues to be at the forefront of media based technology.
It was they who trialed the Lossless FLAC stream of the Proms this last year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2017-04...lity-flac-dash
If we have to lose FM (please don't take that statement as an opportunity to divert this thread to a Digi Vs Analogue argument!) then I am glad they are looking at alternative ways of getting good quality sound of the Proms to our homes, if one can't attend in person!

James.

[dave walsh]

I heartily agree with Tanuki's comments in p11* Do you know for certain that all those early b+w C Street episodes are lost? There are at least two complete ones that have been shown at anniversary points, then you always want to see what happened next. It is amazing social history. I had assumed that Granada TV would have taken more care. Even though we had moved to a modern semi when the first episode was Broadcast [in 1960] most of my life experience had been in a street like that. It's hard to convey the impact this had. Not only was it something directly identifiable but anything based in the Regions was very unusual then in itself. There was an indent "From The North" that either ATV or Granada used, as if to explain or apologise for what was coming next.

You may not be aware, Tanuki, that Coronation Street 1986 is on ITV3 every weekday afternoon at 2-40pm-fascinating! Some of the characters are still current. The social history is significant there as well. When criticised for having to reduce staff in the Rovers Return recently Bet Lynch said "It's not the sixties any more when you could just walk into a job" but stressed that without a hard line, everybody would be out of work. The Newsagents recently got an Electric Cash Register [Mavis was upset by the march of modernity] and has also begun trading as a Video Rental Outlet.

I understand that this C Street material was on a Satellite Channel before transfer to terrestial broadcasting last October. I only found out about this via my Computer Man. It wasn't flagged up anywhere. I think the episode numbers started in the 1600's but that doesn't necessarily mean the previous tapes or cine-film transfers are in existence. Two technical points. The Image quality is not brilliant but very acceptable I would say, as a non purist. Whenever there is a crowd sequence ie in the pub, the sound balance isn't quite right often tending to drown out the dialogue. I don't think it was ever that bad every time so I'm wondering if it's something to do with way the audio is being processed now? Enjoy anyway!

Dave W

[Graham G3ZVT]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

There was an indent "From The North" that either ATV or Granada used, as if to explain or apologise for what was coming next.

Dave W

I can tell you uncategorically, that was intended a proud boast, not an apology!

[dave walsh]

Glad to hear it Graham. that's probaly what I thought at the time-especially as different things seemed to be happening north of Watford. It's only with the passage of time that the other side of the coin becomes apparent perhaps. Mark Radcliffe used to open his 90's radio show with a recording of a rather dry and condescending 1930's BBC voice saying "This Is The BBC From The North".
The late GREAT Marc E Smith was a bit tougher with "HIT THE NORTH" but he meant suck it up not attack it. Tony Wilson was a bit posh but he stayed where the action was and got vilified for it! He said on News Night.."They all like me now I'm dying" now that's Northern. Things didn't change that much really. The Beeb had to bus in BBC staff through Rammy and Chorlton with £300 pounds spending money to persuade them to try working at Media City. The chap who got the Senior job never actually moved from the Home Counties. One of my favourite Radio Times cartoons shows a disheartened chap at a ticket office on the Northern Line after he's been told "We don't go to Salford"

Dave

[Dave Moll]

Mind you, I quietly smile to myself when Manchester is referred to as "north", seeing that it takes me nearly three hours heading south to get there - and I'm south (just) of the border with Scotland.

[Craig Sawyers]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

It always imporesses me just what can be done these days with digital technology to recover analog recordings.

It is off topic regarding this being not use of technology to get film images out of goop, but use of similar technologies to unravel the Antikythera mechanism.

The BBC documentary from a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSQNEPbQOiI

[Colourstar]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

the first decade of Coronation Street would be something I'd pay to get

In that case are you aware of this dvd box set?

http://networkonair.com/drama/1439-c...reet-1960-1969

It includes a number of complete episodes from each year and features the very first colour one from 1969. Well worth getting!

Steve

[G6Tanuki]

Originally Posted by Colourstar

In that case are you aware of this dvd box set?

http://networkonair.com/drama/1439-c...reet-1960-1969

It includes a number of complete episodes from each year and features the very first colour one from 1969. Well worth getting!

Steve

That I really must get; but TBH I'll be watching each episode and expecting to see what-happened-later-that-week.

Though highbrow types and elitists may denigrate and look down on the soap-opera and its followers, I celebrate soaps as an enduring visceral and embracing reflection of the Zeitgeist. [Why dismiss Coronation Street as 'common' but go all retro-romantic and dewy-eyed over Round the Horne, The Navy Lark or Hancock's utterly dismal and depressing Half Hours?]