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Old 26th Jul 2019, 11:24 am   #1
'LIVEWIRE?'
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Question Size of Modern Batteries

Reading a thread in which someone mentioned that a PP9 bought from CPC won't fit the allocated space in a transistor radio reminded me that I've yet to find a PP3 which will comfortably fit in my M3800 DMM. Over the past few years I've used Duracells, Panasonics, Everready, etc., plus some store 'own brands, such as Sainsburys Alkaline. All work well and last an average of 2-3 months in the meter, which is used almost every day, but none are an easy fit in the compartment, which always makes it difficult to fit the two parts of the case back together. My M3800, which has a yellow case, and was bought at the NVCF 3 or 4 years ago, may be a Chinese copy, not the original, but are all modern batteries slightly larger than those of old?
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 12:23 pm   #2
Mike. Watterson
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

Kodak PP3s are the worst for being too large. You can't daisy chain five for 45V. Two sets of 45V of PP3 daisy chained means only two cut in half PP3 connectors are needed in a B126.

I'm not convinced the mentioned PP9 is in the correct orientation. The ONLY batteries I've ever had a size issue with is some brands of Alkaline PP3s. Some are slightly too long as well as too fat.
Alkaline PP3s can contain 6 Alkaline near rectangular buttons (Lidl models and they are OK). Some packs contain 6 actual AAAA cells. That doesn't fit L, W or H. Some contain slightly shorter than AAAA cells. Length will be correct, but some are too fat.
Also some PP3 holders are not the size even of vintage PP3.
The Cylindrical cells are either R or LR specs and I've not seen a problem.

There certainly is a problem with some Alkaline PP3 and also with some PP3 holders.

A layer cell carbon PP3 has actually not as bad performance compared to Alkaline PP3 with the 6 off slightly smaller than AAAA cells due to volume efficiency. I'd not use them in a smoke alarm or intermittently used test gear, but unlike evil Zinc Carbon and Zinc Chloride cylindrical cells which work out expensive and should be banned, traditional layer PP3 and PP9 in every day use equipment are fine and unlike cylinder Zinc the PP3 layer cells for mA Hours vs price work out cheaper than Alkaline, fit better than some and don't leak.

Last edited by Mike. Watterson; 26th Jul 2019 at 12:31 pm. Reason: PP3 Layer cells
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 12:40 pm   #3
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

There is an IEC standard for battery dimensions that specifies the allowable tolerances. My recollection is that PP-series batteries used to have waxed cardboard or shrunk plastic cases, both types having a certain amount if "give", unlike the rigid metal or hard plastic of today's products. Perhaps the designers of older equipment relied on this.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 12:47 pm   #4
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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Originally Posted by Mike. Watterson View Post
Kodak PP3s are the worst for being too large. You can't daisy chain five for 45V.
Really?
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 1:23 pm   #5
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

I've got a couple of Lego battery boxes form the 1970s which contain three C cells connected in series. With modern batteries, it's a really tight fit. Of course the plastic might have shrunk but it would then probably have warped as well and above all not be compatible with modern Lego pieces, which is not the case.

Perhaps larger tolerances in older manufacturing processes meant that batteries on average were smaller and some equipment manufacturers (e.g. Lego in this case) took advantage of this?
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 4:42 pm   #6
Mike. Watterson
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike. Watterson View Post
Kodak PP3s are the worst for being too large. You can't daisy chain five for 45V.
Really?
I was referring to the alkaline models.
I've never had any Carbon Layer type with an issue.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 4:50 pm   #7
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
My recollection is that PP-series batteries used to have waxed cardboard or shrunk plastic cases, both types having a certain amount if "give", unlike the rigid metal or hard plastic of today's products. Perhaps the designers of older equipment relied on this.
Cardboard -> Metal -> Moulded plastic for PP9s.
PP3s I think only cardboard and metal quite soon for UK Ever Ready. Some brands PP3 always metal. I don't remember ever seeing a plastic PP3 case, even in a photo. I don't remember any shrunk on sleeve PP3 as such. The 15V and 22V packs did use a flimsy plastic shrunk at the ends. They were in hearing aids and flash guns as well as test gear.
There are 45V and 67.5V packs designed like PP3s, but longer. Same snaps. I'm not sure if they ever came in card. They do predate PP3.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 5:20 pm   #8
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

My radio used batteries larger than the PP3 that my father's radio used, and mine had card cases that were easy to dismantle to recycle the snap connectors. I don't recall what the original Ever Ready PP3 case used, only that it wasn't steel like the cheap Flying Bomb types. I used to use the 15V and 22.5V batteries in my flashguns, and in the 1960's these used plastic sleeves.

Last edited by emeritus; 26th Jul 2019 at 5:26 pm.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 7:11 pm   #9
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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I don't remember ever seeing a plastic PP3 case, even in a photo.
Hi Mike,

We have some plastic cased PP3’s at work, they were cheap alkaline ones that someone bought in bulk for our multimeters, they have a shiny silver plastic label stuck over them. I have been saving the dead ones and taking off the snap connectors for use elsewhere!

Regards
Lloyd
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 8:33 pm   #10
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

I have a little plastic metal detector, acquired probably in late '60's. It takes a PP3, and back then they were all plastic or card cases. Once metal cases became commonplace, I could no longer use it. When I particularly needed it about 30 years ago, I opened up the metal case, put the gubbins in a plastic back, and could use it. It is within arm's length of me right now, why I keep it I don't know.
Les.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 9:10 pm   #11
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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My radio used batteries larger than the PP3 that my father's radio used...
PP6? Same connectors as the PP3, and popular in smaller British portables (Perdio, Fidelity etc.), even sometimes in pairs (later Decca Debonette): I don't think I've ever seen an imported radio that used them. Last regularly available in about 1990, and late ones were plastic cased, but they had been metal before that and card-cased a little earlier still.

Paul
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 9:22 pm   #12
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

I'm sure I have scans of all the PP models in card version.
Anyone know why there was never a PP2.
Our local farmers HW still sells the double PP8, the PP8/2. Crazy price. A bunch of Alkaline D cells in series / parallel (not Duracell / Energizer/ Panasonic) would be way cheaper.
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 2:20 am   #13
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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Originally Posted by ricard View Post
I've got a couple of Lego battery boxes form the 1970s which contain three C cells connected in series. With modern batteries, it's a really tight fit. Of course the plastic might have shrunk but it would then probably have warped as well and above all not be compatible with modern Lego pieces, which is not the case.

Perhaps larger tolerances in older manufacturing processes meant that batteries on average were smaller and some equipment manufacturers (e.g. Lego in this case) took advantage of this?
Are your Lego battery boxes like this one ? I used to have one with a motor and wheels to go with it. I think mine got lost or broken, but I still have some of the figures with removable hair/wigs
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 3:58 am   #14
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricard View Post
I've got a couple of Lego battery boxes form the 1970s which contain three C cells connected in series. With modern batteries, it's a really tight fit. Of course the plastic might have shrunk but it would then probably have warped as well and above all not be compatible with modern Lego pieces, which is not the case.

Perhaps larger tolerances in older manufacturing processes meant that batteries on average were smaller and some equipment manufacturers (e.g. Lego in this case) took advantage of this?
Pretty much my experience with the blue 1960s Lego battery box (Part no. 101, 4.5V). Modern C cells are tight sideways and a shade too long. I assume the boxes were designed for the old style cells with thin cardboard labels wrapped around the zinc canister. Lego even then was made of ABS, so it doesn't usually shrink with age.
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 4:20 am   #15
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

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Originally Posted by Paul_RK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
My radio used batteries larger than the PP3 that my father's radio used...
PP6? Same connectors as the PP3, and popular in smaller British portables (Perdio, Fidelity etc.), even sometimes in pairs (later Decca Debonette): I don't think I've ever seen an imported radio that used them. Last regularly available in about 1990, and late ones were plastic cased, but they had been metal before that and card-cased a little earlier still.

Paul
My grandmother had a far-eastern transistor radio, she got it in the late 1970s and I probably still have it somewhere. It came with one of those battery holders for 6 AA cells with a PP3-type snap connector. The instructions told you to either use that or to remove the holder and fit an 'Ever Ready / Berec PP6'. I specifically remember the mention of 'Berec' there.

I only remember metal-cased PP6s. The only plastic cased PP3s that I've seen were NiCd ones.
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 8:37 am   #16
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

I ran a very similar thread a couple of years ago re PP3s. The smallest PP3 I found was the orange Wilko ones.
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 12:02 pm   #17
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

BEREC was the initials of British Ever Ready Electrical Company maybe in 1906. Founded by the USA Ever Ready as was the Indian and South African companies. They revived it about 1950 for most places outside UK & Ireland as British Ever Ready Export Company. The USA Ever Ready (Union Carbide/National Carbon Company) at that time adopted UCARs for most overseas sales. The two companies agreed which countries they would be exclusive in and which they'd compete in.

Later in the UK, Ever Ready briefly rebranded as BEREC just before Hanson bought them. Later the UK brand was sold to Purina Pet Foods who by then owned USA Eveready (Union Carbide/National Carbon Company) but rebranded Energiser.

Mallory (later called Duracell) was going to be taken over by UK Ever Ready, but UK government only considered local competition and not world market and blocked it. Mallory actually produced the "Made in Ireland" Ever Ready batteries.
This and refusal to invest in Alkaline till too late made Ever Ready ripe for Hansen's takeover/Asset Strip. He sold the overseas BEREC production and Superpilla and Diamon brands / production and reverted name back from BEREC to Ever Ready. The three 1982 Berec/Ever ready 680x series models were killed off. There had been massive QA issues with them and only a 3rd party import.
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 12:12 pm   #18
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

I have yet to find a PP3 that will fit inside a Perdio Mini 66 and yet allow the back to be replaced. I will try Steve’s suggestion of a Wilco one.
Peter
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 12:29 pm   #19
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I have yet to find a PP3 that will fit inside a Perdio Mini 66 and yet allow the back to be replaced. I will try Steve’s suggestion of a Wilco one.
Peter
Yes I have this lovely (well I think it is) palm size, 60s Japanese 'Empress 7' trannie that takes a PP3, and the orange Wilko one is the only one that fits that I have found. As the Wilko battery must be made by 'a battery company', then I'm sure it is available with a different brand name on it somewhere or other. Reminder to self: always go shopping with your vernier gauge..
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Old 27th Jul 2019, 12:30 pm   #20
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Default Re: Size of Modern Batteries

I have a scan from a 1960's Home Radio (Mitcham) LTD catalogue and it quotes the size of a PP3 as 1 1/16" x 11/16" x 1 15/16".

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