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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 24th Feb 2018, 4:13 pm   #1
tigger449
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Smile Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

Hi there,

I've been thinking of getting a reel to reel tape recorder to pair with my Dynatron HFC51 music centre for some time. The Dynatron can only be said to have moderately good performance so anything high-end would be wasted on it. I'm also running out of flat surfaces, so a machine that can be operated vertically would be ideal.

I've had my eye on a Sony TC350 and a TC366 but it would be good to find a British brand. I know that Dynatron sometimes used Philips cassette decks so maybe that would be another brand to consider.

Any suggestions of machines of a quality to suit my set up would be welcome as well as any other advice or ideas!

Thanks
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 4:47 pm   #2
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

You won't go far wrong with the Sony machines, I worked at a Sony dealership in the 70's. Dynatron never did Reel to Reel and Phillips never made Decks just Reel to reel tape recorders. There is a a British equivalent but it was very high end and I can't remember the make, there may be someone out there who does
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 5:40 pm   #3
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

Mid-market British machines had practically gone by this time, some Thorn things apart. Revox and the Japanese had the market pretty much to themselves by the mid-70s. Ferrograph never really recovered from the Series 7 debacle, the Chilton, whilst ingenious, was felled by the same polyurethane issues which plagued Ferrograph, and then Reps found it easier to make a living building desks for the BBC.

I started in the 70s with an Akai 4000DS - £65 new from Lasky's, which was replaced a couple of years later by a TC377, and it is this I suggest you go for, if you aren't aiming for Revox or Tandberg territory. The 377 has ferrite heads and an elegant single motor transport with a proper speed-change mechanism and servo back-tension. It works better than the price would suggest, and the numbers available in decent shape years later are testament to its basic quality.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 5:57 pm   #4
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinb View Post
Dynatron never did Reel to Reel...
They did, but you'd need prodigious luck to find one of these:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...2&postcount=16

It is of course a complete recorder. I'm almost sure there was at least one much more ordinary Dynatron machine in the early '60s, and not confident there wouldn't have been at least one model of separate deck to accompany their radiograms.

Paul
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 6:03 pm   #5
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

I would agree

British tape recorders fell towards two camps, the BSR TD2 based ones from multiple manufacturers and the old 'Wearite' decked Ferrographs. The later Ferrographs are too much trouble to support, the old Ferrographs were almost all mono, and the TD2 isn't very good quality.

The Japanese ran away with the market. Most people bought Akai, fewer people a bit better off could afford the less-flashy Sony models.

An Akai 4000DS would be what someone a bit aspirational owning your dynatron would have gone for. The rival Sony TC377 of that era has long lasting heads and doesn't have Akai's disintegrating cam problems.

But you don't have to match the quality of the Duynatron. There is no law against going better. Nothing will go wrong, no-one will get upset or laugh. You could view it as something you might wish you'd done if you ever improve on your Dynatron.
Revoxes aren't cheap, but they are affordable now. Their quality is excellent and they have good durability and repairability. There are experienced repairers around. I've had mine for 40 years, and before that, an Akai 4000DS.

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Old 24th Feb 2018, 6:33 pm   #6
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

I remember a Revox campaign along these lines in the seventies -"your tape recorder is your musical memory bank. It's the one area where only the best makes sense."

Last edited by Ted Kendall; 24th Feb 2018 at 6:40 pm.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 6:58 pm   #7
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

What is the distinction between a 'tape deck' and a 'tape recorder'? I would claim that the former needs an external amplifier (for example the one in the Dynatron) to drive loudspeakers, the latter has power amplifiers built-in.

In which case Philips certainly made 'tape decks'. The N4510 is one such (and quite a nice machine). Equally Ferrograph and Revox also made 'tape recorders'.

You need to decide what you want it for, and how much work you are prepared to put in to restoring it and keeping it running. My thoughts :

Philips : The N4510, N4418 (similar to the N4510 but with power amplifiers that you don't have to use) and N4450 (extremely complex bidirectional machines) are nice, but suffer from belts turning to Evil Goo, bad contacts on the slide switches and some transistor problems. Great if you want a restoration project, and the results are worth it, but...
Older Philips machines are not that great but might be what was used with such a radiogram when it was 'current'

Revox : Beautiful! But expensive and can need work.

Ferrograph : Rubber problems (idlers, pinch rollers, etc). Not done a full restoration of one yet, I'll let the forum know when I do

Uher : Never worked on a reel-to-reel, but if their cassette machines are anything to go by then it will be nice.

Akai : Never worked on one, but some models have a pot metal cam in the mode selector that crumbles away.

Sony : Worked on a couple, I didn't like them much. This is a make that _I_ would avoid.

Grundig : The only ones I have worked on were the competitors to the cheaper Philips machines, and I feel they were not as good as the Philips.

Tandberg : The ones I have worked on were nice, easy to repair. No idea if they have any nasty issues though. Well made from what I've seen

Anything based on the TD2 deck (many cheaper British machines, Fergusson, Bush, etc): not good. Very much cheap domestic machines.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 11:02 pm   #8
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

I think that any reel-to-reel tape machine nowadays is old enough that it may need work.

For any that may be found there will be a spread of condition between unused and worn-out at the extremes. Some worn things can be fixed, but spare parts will come from someone scrapping another machine of that model. Tape heads can be very expensive if you find someone selling good ones.

The Uher reel-to-reel machines that turn up are almost all small-spool machines used for recording radio interviews by roving reporters. There are people on here with experience of them. The couple I've been inside didn't convince me that I wanted one.

Single-motor transports were cheap, but they had loads of rubber tyres driving idler wheels, driving spools. Maybe with belts as well. expect rubber trouble.

Three motor decks get around all the idlers and belts, though they might have one driving the capstan flywheel, and they almost all have a thin one driving the turns counter.

The Philips N4450 has three motors, but the spool motors have speed reducing belt drives so that small motors can be used. This looks a bit like cost-cutting on their top of the range home machine - Philips also made large console machines for studios (As did Revox's parent company, Willi Studer)

The older Ferrographs used a motor directly on the spool shaft, and a belt drive to the capstan, but these are mis-sixties machines and valve-based. Stereo ones are rather uncommon.

The Rexox models were three motor with direct drive to the spools and to the capstan. There is a market in spares, though worn heads would be an expensive problem. THey also come in different track format and speed ranges. Occasionally you come across a standard speed machine which has been bodged to run at higher speed.

I knew several people with Akai machines. The 1720L 2-head recorder, and the 400D and 4000DS decks. In the time I had mine, I used it heavily and had to replace the spool bearings a couple of times. The heads were fine, and it the cam problem has only come to light now these machines are 25+ years old. Some of them last OK, others crumble.

The Japanese decks tend to be mechanically complicated, a bit like an autochanger with lots of pressed-steel levers. The Revox is mechanically far simpler. I'm not enamoured of the quality of Revox printed circuit boards. The tracks are much too prone to lift if components are changed. But that can be handled. Generally these machines are built for industrial use. Apart from the turns counter belts, there is only rubber on the pinch-wheel.

The Sony TC377 with its ferrite heads gets around the Akai's main weaknesses. Both Akai and Sony sound good when in good condition.

All of these machines look fairly impressive from the outside, it was an important selling point, though the TC377 looks a bit plainer than the Akai, and the Revox looks plainer still. Open them up, and it's the Revox which looks very impressive.

So If you can find a good Akai or Sony, it'll do what you're looking for. I think it may be more work finding a good Akai, or fixing one, than it would for a Sony.

Most of the Uhers you'll come across are the battery-portable Report model which won't be suitable for domestic stereo use.

Tandberg made good machines of their era, but the majority to be found in Britain are older valved machines relatively few were stereo, and their later transistorised machines are fairly uncommon.

Philips have made an awful lot of tape machines over the years and many have been imported into Britain. I don't know my way around them, I've simply not been inside enough of them.

Once the compact cassette got going, it took out the lower end of the reel-to-reel market fairly quickly, so the open reel machines of the era you're considering are the domestic hifi ones and the semi-professional bordering on professional ones.

David
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 12:25 am   #9
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

I'm inclined to say that the best is the cheapest in the long run - once a Revox is fixed it generally stays fixed. I agree with David that a Revox looks a bit plain on the outside, but inside is a thing of beauty - form elegantly following function. The starkest example which comes to mind is the difference between the Revox A700 and the Philips N4520. Outwardly similar in size, shape and layout - and to be fair. of similar performance in optimal circumstances - yet the Revox has three large AC motors with generous ball races, a die-cast chassis and plug-in audio circuit boards, resulting in a machine which is reliable and straighforward to fix, whilst the Philips by contrast sports birds-nest wiring, untidy layout, flimsy switches and puny motors whose bearings, in my experience, collapse prematurely, rendering the machine a parts donor.

I suppose one could argue that the Philips would work well for a typical design life of a few years, but we aren't talking about current technology, and I find it more comforting to recall the tongue-in-cheek statement which appeared in a Tape Recorder article about the Studer factory decades ago - "a Revox will give good service for thirty years or so, but a Studer is built to last!"
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 12:44 pm   #10
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

You've got plenty of choices. I'd always prefer a three-head tape deck, even just for there being no play/record switch -- the root of much evil in two-head recorders -- but off-tape monitoring is also useful. If you set the recording level almost, but not quite, to the onset of distortion on the very loudest passages, then you are using all the tape's dynamic range -- the loudest passages can still be reproduced faithfully, and quieter passages will be recorded loudly enough to overcome the inherent noise. Once you know how much magnetisation each brand of tape can take, and what it looks like on the meters, you can use them to set the recording levels.

If I was going to let my heart rule my head,I'd have to recommend the Akai 4000 DS mk. II just because it was the first three-head recorder I ever owned -- I came very late to the party, but the machine had evidently been handled with kid gloves by its former owner and could not have counted many hours of use (although the heads were really, really filthy). But as mentioned above, the cams are a weakness with these machines; the alloy from which they were cast was of somewhat variable quality.

Otherwise, you could go for Sony, Teac or Pioneer -- all perfectly respectable machines. If you aren't into Japanese kit, then Philips made some nice machines -- though being Philips, they have the usual endearing idiosyncrasies. Tandberg also made some fine tape recorders. The Revox machines are what we'd nowadays call "prosumer" -- better than normal consumer kit, not built quite to industrial standards but adequate for occasional use in a professional environment.

The Uher portables are also prosumer-class. The two-track mono (4000) versions were used by the BBC local radio stations for news reporting (and often modified to fix the speed at 19cm.s., to match what the big Studers used; they were one-track, using the full width of the tape, but if the tape was bulk-erased before setting out with the Uher and only recorded on one side, the fact of there being signal only on half the oxide did not matter so much). The stereo (two-track 4200 and four-track 4400) versions were used by amateur filmmakers and musicians. They perform excellently, but the 13cm. maximum reel size might be a limitation too far if you already have tape on 15 or 17cm. reels. (The later three-head "monitor" machines are quite safe with triple-play tape, though; and the three-head 4400 Report Monitor can use both sides of the tape, so you can squeeze 48 minutes onto a side using the highest speed of 19cm/second. But even at 9.5cm/s., which is still an hour a side on the more common double-play tape, the Uher machines perform so well that your Dynatron's amplifier and speakers probably will not show a noticeable difference from 19.)
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 6:11 pm   #11
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

When it comes to these machines, I would tend to avoid any with complicated sets of linkages and lots of rubber idlers. This is due to only having one motor. These are far more time consuming to restore and idlers are far harder to source than belts. Te recent thread on the Truvox/Magnavox 363 deck should give an indication of what you can be faced with!

Unfortunately the mid 70s Akais and Sony stereo units tend to fall into this category. I have a Sony TC270 and a Grundig TK248 which are horribly complex to work on. Okay if you are experienced but not for the faint hearted.

My preference for the mid market single motor type would be for the Tandbergs - you often see 3000x series stereo units about and these have a figure of eight o-ring belt which is simplicity itself to source and fit. Apart from that there is only one rubber idler and the pinch roller, which are usually okay. Sound quality is very good.

The stereo piano key Philipses like the N4407 are quite nice to work on, despite having a couple of belts and two idlers. The larger of the two idlers is often okay but the smaller one goes gooey. This I have replaced with -believe it or not - a pinch roller off an old portable r2r. All in all not too bad to get going again.

The next step up would be the three motor Sonys, TC-755 and the like, whose quality I can vouch for, or Revox.

Later machines made by Teac/Tascam might be worth pursuing but build quality is not the best and DC motors can fail.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 9:32 pm   #12
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

If you want something to match the style of your Dynatron then I'd suggest something by Tandberg or perhaps Bang and Olufsen (B&O). If you seriously want to get into reel to reel then go for a Revox. I spent ages feeling frustrated with the idiosyncracies of cheaper machines until I bought my B77 which is still going strong 35 years later.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 9:39 pm   #13
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

My experience with Tandberg has been that virtually all machines will need a replacement pinch roller nowadays, as Tandberg tended to use a rubber that hardened and cracked with time. The idler transferring motion to the flywheel usually fares pretty well on the other hand.

Luckily there are people refurbishing pinch rollers with very good results, so it's not a major problem, but will of course add to the cost of the machine. Also, later single-motor Tandbergs (2000, 3000X, 3300X, 3400X, 4000X, 6000X) use friction pads which also will have crumbled by now. Otherwise they're fine machine once these areas have been addressed.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 1:12 pm   #14
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

I would like to recommend a Teac ‘A’ three-motor machine to anyone starting out and wanting a good performing machine with a small ‘footprint’ (vertical operation) that is reliable. We have a Teac A4300SX that has given many years of excellent trouble-free performance, unlike the British Ferrograph Series 7 decks in my collection.
Any open reel machine of this age will need some servicing and they do require regular maintenance but for the performance it is worth it.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 7:21 pm   #15
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

Thanks for your all your advice folks.
I've got a watch on a few machines on ebay, so watch this space!
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Old 28th Mar 2018, 12:51 pm   #16
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Default Re: Reel to reel tape deck for new collector

Yup, just another collector giving his 2 cents,

I started off from an Akai. A tube 1710W and I have owned nearly 50 decks since. I have serviced and sold many and currently own:

1710 (the 1700 variant with 2 VU meters)
1710w
1722L
4000D
4000DS mk1
X2000SD - combination cassette reel to reel and cartridge deck
X-IV
X-V
X-5000W
X-330 (this one is superb - like new, extremely low wear heads 10 inch reels)
GX-365
GX-215D
Sanyo MR-151
Teleton 710 - Sounds like Trash.

AND STILL COLLECTING.

To be honest, nearly all of these decks are MINT and all serviced properly. I have owned a Sony TC 366, but it is no match in comparison to my X-330, and GX-365 decks. But of course I'm looking into selling the X-330 in the near future, But I doubt anyone will pay the 700 pound asking price even though the deck is virtually new. I'd go for anything japanese, I have owned 2 philips decks as well, but they suffer high end problems. I've sold them as fast as I can, because as a newbie, you don't quite know what brands are good until you try them for yourself.
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