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Old 28th Aug 2018, 11:17 am   #21
Audio1950
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

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The down side would be to wind it fully would take twice as many turns as a single spring motor. The HMV 101 single spring motor took more than enough turns to fully wind it!! Interesting!
Nick
Ah, but when fully wound, this motor will play at least four sides before running out of power!

Barry
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 12:30 pm   #22
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It looks like I'm going to get this motor running. I gave the drum (barrel) and springs a bit of a clean. It was a messy old job as would be expected with these things and some of the mess is pictured below. They really were bad and the hardened grease was worse than it had at first appeared to be, and the stuff shown in the little pot in the forth picture below is some of what came off and out, and it really was hard, like lumps of metal flake - even after being in solvent! Someone mentioned gearing in a previous post, which has made me think that the broken spring may possibly have been caused by having the turntable wound backwards after all. I don't mean that the actual act of winding it backwards has broken the spring, but the fact that due to the extremely low gear ratio from this direction, you might be unaware that the spring was at the end of its travel, which you would have been if winding via a handle. With half the turns of the springs possibly sticking together, you might keep on turning the platter to try to get enough 'wind' to play a full record, thus putting a huge stress on the fixed ends of the springs.

In the photos you can now clearly see the bent lower hook on the spring barrel. I tried to bend it back on a anvil arrangement in the vice, but it was causing the fixed tail end to lift from the inside of the barrel and also bend the barrel itself. This was in someways a good thing, as it indicated that the metal the hook was made of still had its strength. So I ground off the rivet heads and punched them through with a punch. They were a tight fit in their holes, so tight in fact that when ground down it wasn't possible to see exactly where they were at first. I only ground one rivet head off at first as I thought the two hooks were separate, I hadn't realised that it was all one piece with one hook facing one way and the other facing in the other direction, so obviously both rivets had to come out. With the spring hook piece removed, it was possible to bend it back into shape and I seem to have got away with it, as the metal seems to have pretty much kept its strength, although only time will tell on that one. Just got to remake the hook end on the spring now.

I'll have to check my rivets (where ever they are) and see if I've got any steel ones of the right size. I know I've got a lot of copper ones somewhere but I think these will definitely be too soft. I may well use small nuts and bolts. I usually use those 'RS' BA chrome on brass types for everything, but I'm thinking that they may not be strong enough for this job. I think it was Chris that mentioned Meccano in a previous post, so I may have to raid the old Meccano set, as they'll be steel and possibly the right size, although from memory, they may be slightly too small. I also need a winding handle, as I don't seem to have a suitable one to fit and I want to avoid 'modifying' one!
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 5:48 pm   #23
Audio1950
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

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I also need a winding handle, as I don't seem to have a suitable one to fit and I want to avoid 'modifying' one!
Can you measure the distance from the end of the winding shaft to the outside edge of the cabinet. The length of the handle will be about an inch or two longer, and I'll check my spares for one.

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Old 30th Aug 2018, 7:11 pm   #24
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

Many thanks, Barry. I made this measurement the other day when I was trying to find something suitable, but this afternoon I popped the motor unit back on the motor board and placed it upside down in the cabinet to make sure of the measurement. As can be seen, it's exactly five inches (or 12.7 cm) from the start of the threaded socket to the outside edge of the cabinet. Fingers crossed you may be a saviour in this case - picture below
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 9:21 am   #25
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

Sorry, can't help this time. Had a search through all my HMV handles, but nothing that long.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 12:37 am   #26
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Many thanks for looking anyway, Barry, it’s much appreciated. The chances are that if you’d found one, you’d have then found that you would need it yourself a week after letting it go – that’s often the way. Having said that, I don’t think you particularly collect cabinet gramophones and this one does take quite a long winding handle.

It looks like I’m going to have to make one. The original plan was to modify the nearest handle I had by splicing and welding the shaft of a bolt onto the end of it (bolt and handle shown in picture below) but even then, it would have been a touch too short without either finding a longer bolt or splicing another bolt shaft between the two. Also, I didn’t really want to destroy that handle as the moment I did, another gramophone that it would fit would likely turn up needing it. I’m not sure why I’ve got that handle, it could belong to a motor hidden away somewhere in the loft that I’ve forgotten about, so best that it’s saved for now.

Having given some in depth thought as to what to cut up to make a suitable winding handle, including scissor jack handles etc. (but they’re slightly too fat), I suddenly remembered the golf clubs I made in metalwork when I was at school. Me and a mate were obsessed with golf (for some reason) and we spent much time making various designs of golf clubs in the metalwork room at school, and somehow a couple of the ones that I made still exist. The ideal candidate is a particularly bad design that I’d made all those years ago, which even with an added weight that I’d riveted onto the back of the head to try to improve it, was still absolutely rubbish, the homemade golf club is also shown in the picture below. After checking the steel rod part for size with a micrometer, I found it to be exactly the right diameter compared to the bolt and the handle shown at around 1.05 cm. It’ll definitely be an imperial size, but I didn’t have my imperial micrometer to hand at the time.

If I knew exactly what the thread type was (I’d tried several bolts of the same size but it was only one of them that had the correct thread), it might have been worth buying a ‘die’ of that particular thread type and cutting one directly onto the rod. However, I’ll probably just splice and weld the shaft of that bolt onto the end of the rod. The thread of that bolt has been slightly damaged, but it screws into the winding socket OK, so I'll use it. If I’d still been at work I could have got something like this done easily in the workshops. I can still do it at home, but it just takes longer and is more of a fiddle, but I still usually find that if I can’t get a part, then I can usually make it, or make something close and usable.

As you can see in the picture, it’s a rough old thing on the outside of the cabinet, particularly on the top. Looking at various pictures of this model and similar ones, I notice that there’s a few that are quite rough on the top, although I’m sure we’ve all seen worse. At least the fretwork in front of the horn is still in one piece – did I say I wasn’t going to bother with this gramophone? Well, I’ll get it running first and then see where we go from there.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 11:08 pm   #27
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

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did I say I wasn’t going to bother with this gramophone? Well, I’ll get it running first and then see where we go from there.
Well I did get it running.

The first thing was to make something to wind it with. I’d found a bolt of the correct thread in one of my many tins, but although usable, the thread had been slightly damaged from being screwed into something with a slightly different thread at some time. Seeing as I’d had a few days of welding on my everyday car which is now over 26 years old, it was time to go and visit my local MOT tester. I showed him the bolt and he identified it as a half inch UNF and said they used quite a lot of them in the workshop, so gave me a couple of new bolts and a nut to have a play around with. I cut the head off one of the bolts and cut a slot in it with a grinder. I then cut a tongue in the rod from my butchered schoolboy golf club and got a good solid fit between the two. I could have drilled the join and put a small pin through it but went for the much better idea of a big ignorant and highly penetrating electric weld on each side of the joint and then ground it down. The first picture below shows the rod with the bolt welded on. I left plenty of excess thread just in case of damage from the welder on such a small piece. The nut was very useful to have on the thread for cleaning the vital part up after welding and grinding the nipple on the end for location and stopping the thread from ‘bottoming’ in the socket and jamming, just the same as the original would have been. I found an image with measurements on the net which I’m pretty sure is of the correct winding handle for this model. The second picture below shows a paper print out of one of the downloaded images of a winder (crank) with the various other components laid out on it for direct comparison. As an aside to this, an old pal of mine came round the other day and he reckoned that it wouldn’t be a UNF size, but rather something like a whitworth or similar which happens to coincide at a point where the thread pitches are virtually the same, although I haven’t done any further research into this. All I can say is that the bolts I was given fit the socket thread on the motor perfectly.

I’d found a couple of small steel nuts and bolts to replace the rivets holding the spring barrel hooks as shown in the third picture. I removed the temper from the end of the broken spring by heating and bent a fresh hook, checking with a set square that it was absolutely level so as not to stress any single point on the inside of the bend when wound. I then re-tempered by heating to the appropriate heat and dunking in a cup of cold water – job done and as shown in the forth picture. Some people seem to think that there’s no need to re-temper the spring, but I always do. If the spring isn’t re-tempered, then it will keep bending backwards and forwards and eventually break – either that or the hook will eventually just straighten itself out again and come off. The springs were re-installed in the barrel – I like to put grease into the barrel first and then add the spring on top, with a bit more grease added after. The last picture shows the barrel fitted into the motor. I ground a little off the nuts holding the spring hooks at the risk of the loss of a thread or so, but I didn’t want to risk them catching as the spring barrel revolved as there isn’t a lot of clearance in there. Excess grease was smeared onto various gears and the ratchet. It could be argued that the motor could do with a bit of eventual 'detailing', but it'll do for now.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 11:17 pm   #28
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

The first picture shows it playing its first record. I haven’t as yet bent the ‘rod’ into a winding crank as I haven’t made up my mind on the finished item. I may grind the diameter of the end smaller and make a hardwood knob for it and it will be easier to work with before it’s bent. On the other hand, I may just heat it and bend it into a crank where the extra length shown will be more of an advantage with an all metal winder after it’s bent to shape, otherwise it will obviously be shortened. As can be seen, I’m using a vice grip wrench on the end of the winding rod for the time being to wind it up. I played a few records and it works very well. It’ll play three record sides on one wind. Some say you can get four sides out of a wind, but these motors are often fitted with 17 foot springs, however, the markings on this one indicate that these are 15 foot springs, so probably why three sides instead of four. Both springs were embossed with “The Gramophone Co”, so are the originals.


I’d only dropped the motor board in for a trial run and after a bit of 78 spinning entertainment in the garage, I then completely dismantled the innards from the cabinet so as to make some repairs and tidy it up a bit. In the photos it can be seen that dampness has caused the veneer to lift quite badly in some places. The rear, left hand corner is the worst area on the outside, as seen in the fourth picture below, where it must have spent year stood in a very damp corner of perhaps some old house, or maybe an old damp shed. The third picture below shows the cabinet upside down which shows that pre-veneered on both sides wood had been used and it’s all coming away, even though it can’t be seen when the right way up. A complete dismantling of the internals gives a good opportunity to clean out all the dust that can’t normally be got at. Loads of spilt needles keep turning up which are a mixture of used and unused. As can be seen, the needle receptacle that fits in over the model number plate is missing – anyone got a spare?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 11:32 pm   #29
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The grill cloth is a bit tatty, although I've cut off all the hanging bits - it could be left as it is and called natural degeneration, or patina, but we'll have to see about that. There is a metal mesh grill behind the cloth on these.

There's going to be quite a bit of gluing and clamping going on. This is looking like it's going to be a bit of a restoration after all - and after all I said at the start of this thread!

So that's the story so far.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 9:19 am   #30
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

I'm impressed with what you've done so far.

With a bit more work you could get it to sound as good as this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGaZM1smU3M
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 11:03 pm   #31
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

1)Weighting and waiting!

2)Weight balance/d, to concentrate the pressure on the edge with a bit extra glue, let's hope I don't knock into it and it falls off onto my foot!

3)Getting 'stuck' in with more sticking and clamping!

4)More clamping, weighting and waiting!

5)It's getting there gradually
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 9:08 pm   #32
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The underside of the cabinet veneer has all been stuck back down. That at the rear had to be soaked before it would lay and line up flat. It isn't seen and could have been just cut off and removed, but seeing as most of it was still there and it's original to the cabinet, then it may as well be re-glued and kept as original.

The record storage compartment door has some added nails from a previous repair that needed removing - fortunately they hadn't penetrated all the way through to the front face of the door. There's a distinct lack of wood around those swivel plates and there was very little holding them in place. The remaining wood and veneer has all been glued back down and the lack of wood in that area will be dealt with next.

It looks like that door has has been pressed down by something heavy. It has the look of a handy little seat when hinged down, so someone may have sat on it, perhaps a child, getting the effect of that 'bass in the back' from the horn while playing a record. However, I think that it may also be down to having a heavy pile of 78s stacked on it while sorting through ones to play from the cupboard - some time long, long ago.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 11:57 pm   #33
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The lid has been glued and clamped. Now it's all been stuck down, the top will need total re-finishing.

The record compartment door has been successfully repaired and I'm going to need to do a bit of blending in - it's the inside of the door, so won't be seen when closed. If I can't blend the finish of the two repaired areas in with the rest of the area well enough, then I may just re-finish the entire side, which is what I'm going to have to do with the top of the lid anyway, but as much of the original finish is going to be left as possible - well that's the plan, although there never was really a plan in the first place.

It's funny the things you notice while working on these things. The slot for one of the swivel plates in the record compartment door has been cut slightly too long, although the screw and spindle holes are in the right place. Also, note in the last picture below showing the hinge swivel hardware, how one of the swivel pins is longer than the other - and this is HMV quality?

It's very lucky that as well as the glue, there was quite a lot of screws holding this cabinet together, otherwise it would have just been a motor and parts and a pile of random wood - so that IS HMV quality!
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 11:35 pm   #34
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Looks like it's just about a success story. It was never intended to be a restoration, just to get it up and running and see where it went from there. So now it's in a bit better state than it was to start with, it'll maybe get moved from the garage into the house. It's certainly been saved from the November the fifth bonfire. I was talking to the chap that gave it to me the other day and he told me that if I hadn't taken it then he was going to chop it up and burn it, perhaps just saving some of the hardware, which would have no doubt have been eventually offered to me anyway. He was quite shocked that I'd actually done a semi restoration on it, as he thought it was too far gone and that I'd probably scrap it anyway.

The whole job has cost virtually nothing, as I've either repaired what was broken, made what was missing and used what was already around in the garage and shed.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 11:44 pm   #35
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So it was time to play a bit of 'Garage' music to wake the neighbours! It's a bit loud using standard needles, as would be expected, and with no doors to close and a grill in front of the horn, you can't exactly 'put a sock in it'

So a bit of 'garage' 78 spinning was done, plus a picture of the back for completeness
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 9:16 pm   #36
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Default Re: HMV 145 gramophone

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The whole job has cost virtually nothing, as I've either repaired what was broken, made what was missing and used what was already around in the garage and shed.
That really is in the true spirit of restoration! Considering this machine was basically scrap, I am well impressed with the final result- 10/10 from me!

The 101 I did was incredibly loud even with 'soft' needles- I can see why Barry (Audio1950) told me I wouldn't need anything louder. Soft needles apparently, are also kinder to the records.

Well done!
All the best
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