Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

[richrussell]

I enjoyed it, but then I wasn't expecting a highly accurate technical documentary. I was expecting an interesting narrative describing the events in a way the general public could understand. I guess being just over 40 I'm young enough not to be bothered by the 'cycles/hertz' issue too much.

I did offer my wife my copy of Merrill Skolnik's 'Introduction to Radar Systems' but the maths quickly put her off. And to think I understood and could put into practice everything in that book 20 years ago...

[Andrew2]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

Remember that Radar is pulsed: 350Kw with a 1:1000 duty-cycle is only 350 Watts average input

Oh yes indeed, but didn't one of them say they had 6000v HT? Those wee valves would have blown them selves to bits! Even the mighty 813 doesn't like much above 4Kv. And 350KW at an HT of 6KV would mean 58 amps anode current! Phew, the cathodes (and probably everything else) would have disappeared on the first pulse!

[turretslug]

I watched last night, (whilst the forum bedded down) and it was pretty much exactly as I thought it would be- take a standard plot (in this case, weary, stoical, dutiful boffin leads his motley, sometimes disharmonious but ultimately loyal crew of ornery blokes to triumph despite the sneering civil servants, politicians, purse-string holders and general "officialdom" en route- that one's been around since at least the Ancient Greeks) and weave some historical names and events around it.

Real-life events are generally rather dull on examination and producers, directors always (being human) put their own spin and take on events and pressure script-writers into sexing things up. The "drama-doc" format is ever more popular and one always needs to be pre-informed from as many sources as possible and keep plenty of pinchable salt on hand. I'm a bit weary of the number of times I've had someone earnestly regale me with the "facts" that they've picked up from popular culture,

"Wow- that film on Kennedy- it's all coming out now!!". Noo-noo-noooo, what's coming out is Oliver Stone's personal axe-grinding and paranoia. Please get wise...

As to set-dressing, it's highly likely that a relatively junior runner(s) will have been dispatched with account details and the instruction, "get me several hundred-weight of old electrical-type stuff and don't spend too much"- they wouldn't know the difference between a Lecher line and a washing line. Some of the production was rather gauche- the repeated dialogue shots with an HRO prominently in the foreground- and square-on to the camera to boot- come on, that's less than sophisticated.

So, many of us will have groaned- I did too, but I kept it submerged and enjoyed the (cheesy) story. Joe (and Joanna) Average won't have had an earthly on the tech stuff, but probably also enjoyed the (cheesy) story (see plot-line above!). Which, in outline, is sort of true.

[Skywave]

In an early part of the story, we see Watson-Watt presenting his idea to the Men from the Ministry - those who have access to The Money. By way of an explanation of his general idea, he uses the 'fishing line and bell' bit. Now as far as the presentation of all of that in this story, yes, I'll believe that it was accurate. But with that accepted, I simply cannot understand how an intelligent man - which W-W obviously was - would think for one moment that using such a ridiculous 'analogy' would carry any weight with The Men. But it clearly did.

Now we know that there were all sorts of other ideas floating around at the time, using high-powered radio waves to attack the enemy - that came out in the story. So the basic appreciation and fundamental understandings of Radio Waves would have been known to The Men. And W-W would have known that. So why did W-W not simply explain his idea in such terms, e.g. a sound echo can similarly be produced by a radio wave - producing an echo? Would that have not been much more convincing?

OTOH, perhaps the problem lies with the Men from the Ministry - those who have access to The Money. Consider the case of Frank Whittle & the jet engine. When he took his idea to the Air Ministry 1929, they were not sure what to make of it. (It was presented to a senior boffin called A.A. Griffith who rejected it: but that's not the point. The point is this: The Men were "not sure what to make of it".) But we can be sure that F.W. would have done a far more informative & convincing presentation of his idea than what W-W did with his. Yet F.W.'s idea was rejected; W-W.'s was accepted.

In a word: crazy.

Al.

[David Simpson]

Turretslug's comments regarding a BBC junior runner getting his hands on several hundred-weight of old test equipment and apparatus prompts the Sgt Bilko in me to ask - where is it now that the program has been screened ?
I would ernestly suggest that keen BVWS/Forum guys down south contact the BBC and find out ASAP. Just in case some fool in the props dept decides to dump it in a skip, now that it is no longer required. It could be auctioned off for BVWS funds, or offered for sale on the Forum to interested forum guys at reasonable prices.
Or, God forbid, - some mercenary wheeler-dealer might get his grubby hands on it, and the genuine vintage radio community will be expected to cough up inflated internet prices.

Regards, David

[turretslug]

David, I'm afraid many of us would weep if we saw what goes on... About 25 years ago, I worked as a hand at one of the West London film sets where an abortive pilot programme was made (that's "pilot" in the media world sense, not the Biggles sense...) Around 20 tons of MOD surplus was purchased at scrap value for set dressing, it included loads of NOS spares for Marconi radio compasses (the really nice, arguably over-engineered one with the four band, 140kHz-2MHz coverage that had fascinated me as a little 'un from Dad's pilot's notes...) I was sorely tempted to pinch a "set" of bits but knew that there was a very strict protocol re. props. At least, that's how I felt as a young and nervous about my next job novice to that world. Now, I know that an off-hand chat to the right people would have been bountiful,

Colin.

[Dickie]

Originally Posted by Skywave

In an early part of the story, we see Watson-Watt presenting his idea to the Men from the Ministry

I think it's hard to separate the fact from the fiction in this programme. There is little in common with online accounts of Watson-Watts' history (eg Wikipedia), and the storyline as presented.

[terrybull]

I acquired a copy of Echos of War which is quite hard to find, Sir Bernard Lovell's memoirs and was reading it when Sir Bernard died. I wrote to the BBC as his obit broadcast on radio 4 (last words) made no mention whatsoever of his important work on radar. I did not receive a reply.

[SiriusHardware]

Originally Posted by KeithsTV

I've just ordered a copy of the BBC 1977 series The Secret War which is finally released on DVD this coming Monday

THANK YOU FOR THAT. I never did manage to catch the entire series then or as repeats - just ordered it now. Looking forward to seeing it again.

Originally Posted by Station X

The Daventry plane looked like a De Havilland of some kind.

A De Havilland 'Dragon' or 'Dragon Rapide', the outline of which perfectly captures the poise and spirit of a dragonfly.

With that distinctive 'butterfly wing' tail, you couldn't mistake it for anything other than one of his.

[Radio Wrangler]

There is a DH Rapide still in flying order, so the question is whether the broadcast used stock footage or got something done to order. From what I've read of the original radar demo, it seems to have been the right model.

There are various accounts... Arthur C Clarke for example of people getting involved in Chain Home and having to climb the wooden towers.

I'm afraid yesterday's broadcast had me cringing, but I don't suppose I'm in the target audience. It seems wrong to involve these great names in a bit of womphed-up dramatisation like that when they're not around to defend their reputations.

David

[ITAM805]

There is a DH Rapide still in flying order

more than one I believe, I've flew in the one based at Duxford about 12 years ago and there was another at Headcorn a couple of weeks back.

I thought the programme was pretty poor and found myself flicking channel several times throughout. As has been said, it wasn't produced for techie types but even so I found it all a bit uninspiring.

As an aside and not withstanding the brilliant effectiveness of the chain home system, did not the Germans have their "Freya" radar up and running in 1938?

[McMurdo]

Ironically the next programme that followed the film on Quest was a docu about the Dragon Rapide and Anson aeroplanes, so a good night's viewing for me.

There's plenty of in-depth facts about Chain Home if you care to google it, (radarpages etc) and the power the transmitters used was staggering, in fact harmonic distortion of the National Grid was an early problem.

[SiriusHardware]

Originally Posted by ITAM805

more than one I believe, I've flew in the one based at Duxford about 12 years ago and there was another at Headcorn a couple of weeks back.

I go to Duxford (Flying Legends) more or less every year and I've definitely seen up to two DH Rapides flying at the same time. There are usually a couple of Tiger Moths running pleasure rides as well.

[dave walsh]

Yes Kevin and the use of Chain Home was very much extended into the Fifties Cold War. There ia a 200 foot bunker [now flooded] not far from Bexhill. They built it after the war but no one seems to top know or admit to this locally. I wonder what our local actor would say about it? In that sense the unsung Radar work of Watson Watt and the others was an even bigger contribution to the nation in those times!
Dave W

[Radio Wrangler]

At Duxford, you can see at least one bit of radio gear I designed. I did the transmitter and receiver in the Mode-S transponder in Sally-B.

David

[SiriusHardware]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

There ia a 200 foot bunker [now flooded] not far from Bexhill. They built it after the war but no one seems to top know or admit to this locally.

One location name which flashed up briefly in the control room sequence towards the end was that of Truleigh Hill.

In the early part of 2004 I travelled down south for a series of weekends during which I walked the South Downs way from one end to the other. At the end of one day's walking where I was due to finish up in Bramber / Upper Beeding the final stage of my walk was dominated by a large aerial farm which I could see for many miles and eventually walked right past.

I remember thinking at the time that it looked highly likely to have been a wartime radar site, but I had forgotten all about it until now.

[AC/HL]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

Remember that Radar is pulsed

That was just one of their "light bulb" moments. As has been said, if the drama had been a documentary, we would probably have outnumbered the other viewers. Those who wanted to enjoy it for what it was, probably did. Those who didn't were probably never going to.

[lesmw0sec]

The main gripe I had with this was the fact that they used a famous name/event simply to give weight to a fictional production. If they want to write period fiction, why not do something along the lines of 'Foyle's War' which was excellent. If I see something about Watson Watt or other real people, I expect a bit of substantive and accurate material.

[SteveCG]

"Metre wave Radar" was a common descriptor. But up there in the Ultra Short Wave band above 30 Mc/s resided Ally Pally with only a passing mention.

Yes, I was expecting an EF50 out of the TV - considering how many were used in radar systems.

And definitely Mc/s not MHz. I visibly winced at that one.

Not as good as the Bletchley Park TV prog of a few years ago in terms of accuracy, was my conclusion.

P.S. for anybody in the Malvern area there is currently a historical picture display in the local library of things associated with TRE/RRE/RSRE Malvern, the post '42 home of Radar.

[McMurdo]

I thought TV use of the EF50 came about after their success in radar..not the other way round? I suppose the valve shown was at least recognisable to the layman viewer as a valve, an EF50 in a metal envelope may have been unrecognised.