Radio "Badge Engineering" - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Vespaman · 13th Dec 2006, 10:41 am

Season's greetings to all you radio-heads

Many moons ago when I was a spotty teenager I built a six transistor kit radio (OC 44/45, OC81 push-pull output-you know the sort of thing). It worked very well for many years until one hot day in the garden one of the transistors just exploded-blew itself to pieces. Recently it was retrieved from the loft for restoration; problem-no circuit diagram. However, whilst recently surfing this excellent forum my beady eyes lit on a piece about the Alba 22 set; I noticed that the innards looked identical to my mongrel problem. Presumably this manufacturer had found a way of marketing more circuits via hobbyists.

I have also noticed strong family resemblances between other sets with different names ie. Ferranti U1015 and EKCO U332 and Philips B4G17U and Stella ST154U.

Was this a common phenomenon? Does anyone out there know of any other such examples?

Tom_I · 13th Dec 2006, 11:33 am

Badge engineering was commonplace among the larger manufacturers, particularly in the transistor era.

As you have already noted, many Philips models had a Stella equivalent, usually with trim differences, and with the Stella being a little bit cheaper. Similarly with Bush and Murphy. Even the "iconic" Bush TR130 also appeared as the Murphy B818, though in this case the Murphy was the upmarket version.

And over at the British Radio Corporation, or EMI or Thorn, or whatever they called themselves, there were Ferguson and Ultra models which were equivalent, and by the mid-70s the brands HMV, Ferguson and Marconiphone were virtually interchangeable. I bought an HMV model 2182 in 1974, and it also exists as the Ferguson 3182 and the Marconiphone 4182, though this relationship of model numbers does not hold up in all cases.

This is without manufacturers who supplied retailers with "own brand" models. The Perdio PR36 "Fanfare" which makes an occasional appearance on this forum also came branded "Westminster" from Currys, and "Spinney" from Littlewoods. And the Perdio PR25, much maligned for its appearance, could be had in kit form from Laskys as the Realistic Seven.

Yes, they were all at it.

Tom

batterymaker1 · 13th Dec 2006, 2:48 pm

I've noticed a few kit radios in Radio Constructor that smack of the more common Defiant transistor sets.

plumbweiss · 15th Dec 2006, 12:14 am

Perhaps the most confusing but popular radio is with the Pilot Little Maestro Bakelite, the mould dies were sold off after the war and many dealers sold these cases in kits, meaning lots of identical looking (but very different internally) radios..I have several but not an original Pilot!

Plessey's, as OEM extraordinaire, of course made complete radios, TVs, telephones etc all under other peoples names...something that is very commonplace today with the Chinese OEMs making most 'branded' consumer goods seen in the UK.

It's all set to continue as consumer electronics manufacturers continue to get bigger but fewer.

Neil Purling · 20th Jun 2007, 10:23 pm

I have been looking at some old issues of Practical Wireless and have noted several concerns that issued these kits based around the 'Little Maestro' type case.
I also noted one sold by Radio & TV Components (Acton) Limited that is a 3 valve + metal rect (2x VR65, VT52) in a case that looks distinctly like a GEC.
The problem with those radio kits is that they all varied so much in content depending on what had been bought surplus.
Some have a miniature transformer for the heaters wheras others resort to the usual ballast resistor, probably due to the valve types in use.
Did only Premier mark the dials with their monniker?
I had one (not by Premier) that was a pretty crude 'superhet'.

Paul_RK · 20th Jun 2007, 10:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Purling

... kits based around the 'Little Maestro' type case... Did only Premier mark the dials with their monniker?.

The dial of the one here identifies it as a Barton, but I think I've seen several that were unforthcoming.

Paul

Neil Purling · 21st Jun 2007, 8:07 am

This thing of mine fed RF to a mixer/osc stage direct. The 4**Khz result being fed to a regenerative detector. The level of regen preset by a trimmer at the back of the case. To get R4 on Long Wave the set would howl on more local broadcasts so you had to take the thing off the shelf to tweak the trimmer.

The 3 valve TRF from Radio & TV Components (Acton) Ltd is in a case like the GEC BC6245. Anybody got one of them?
I find these kit radios very interesting. There are others out there I would like to discuss that are not within this topic.

'LIVEWIRE?' · 21st Jun 2007, 8:22 am

Several Dansette and Perdio radios were sold in kit form by the likes of R&TVC and Henry's Radio back in the 60s and 70s. Both firms, as many will know, used to advertise their wares in Radio Constructor, Practical Wireless, and other magazines.

Neil Purling · 22nd Jun 2007, 8:29 pm

The Co-Op Defiant brand valve radio sets: Are they by Plessey?

Paul_RK · 26th Jun 2007, 10:42 am

At least the vast majority of them were. Plessey-built sets were released under quite a few other brands both before the launch of Defiant and after WWII (the EMI marques, Regentone, store exclusives, etc.), but Defiant was much their largest outlet.

Paul

Sideband · 26th Jun 2007, 12:28 pm

I've got one of the kit sets branded 'Premier'. It's a white version of the 'Little Maestro' cabinet that was popular in the 50's/early 60's. The circuit seems to be based on the 'Repanco SH4', which was presumably available to home constructors to promote the use of their coils and IFt's. I presume Premier simply marketed the kit and were allowed to put their name on the dial.

The radio is actually quite good and uses standard octal valves in a conventional superhet circuit.

Rich.

Steve_P · 26th Jun 2007, 2:30 pm

Defiant were the greatest example of Badge Engineering you're likely to find. I've opened Defiant stuff and found..

Plessey Kit.
Bush/Murphy stuff.
Some Philips kit.
Some KB stuff
and more...

What they did in the 1960's was buy 'Last Years Model', badge it Defiant and sell it at the Co-op. Some were actually sold as the Co-op brand, rather than Defiant.

With the co-op divvy's etc, I am surprised there are not more about!

Cheers,

Steve P

Brian R Pateman · 26th Jun 2007, 6:14 pm

The "Defiant" brand name is significant for the co-operative movement.

The major manufacturers objected to the Co-0p's payment of the "divvy" to its members. They claimed that this was effectively a discount and enabled the Co-Op to undercut the manufacturers' appointed dealers.

The Co-op therefore commissioned their own sets from the likes of Plessey and had the chassis put into a variety of wooden cabinets from their own cabinet makers.

Hence the name "Defiant"!

Regards,

plumbweiss · 26th Jun 2007, 6:59 pm

Yeah I love this tale, maybe we'll learn of similar, more modern shenanigans in years to come?

I think maybe the Pilot bakelite cases were also sold empty, allowing constructors to built what ever they liked into them! Hence the variation.

Studio263 · 28th Jun 2007, 12:52 pm

There was a Grundig dual standard monochrome TV sold here in the mid 60's with a Plessey chassis in it, it's in R+TV S if you want to see it, I don't know if any have survived.

It's sure to be a crushing disappointment if you do discover one, imagine removing the back expecting to find some baroque Continental masterpiece only to find a big dollop of British grey porridge instead.

howard · 28th Jun 2007, 2:45 pm

Hello,

In the 1960s, badge engineering of transistor sets was very common.
Bush and Murphy sets often shared the same chassis, likewise

PYE, Ekco and Ferranti,
Perdio and EAR etc.,
KB and RGD,
Philips, Cossor, Stella and PYE,
GEC, Sobell and Masteradio, ...

Howard

Vectamart · 7th Jul 2007, 2:27 pm

When I was in the TV rental business during the late 1970s, we purchased huge numbers of Co-op and Defiant badged sets from a wholesaler in Stratford Upon Avon. These included monochrome 19" sets fitted with the Rank-Bush-Murphy A640 dual standard chassis as well as the more modern 20" 'square screen' version and the single standard chassis derived form the same series.

We also had loads of Co-op 19" colour sets that were a dead ringer of the Murphy version in everything but name, fitted with the A823 single chip decoder chassis and its larger brother the Co-op 2201, that was identical to the Bush CTV184.

These sets were a nightmare because the tuning was very critical with no AFC; it was almost impossible to set the tuning so as to get a reliable colour picture without the annoying vision buzz on the sound.

A pity really, because they were reasonably reliable in most other ways.

13th Dec 2006, 10:41 am	#1
Vespaman Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 21	Radio "Badge Engineering" Season's greetings to all you radio-heads Many moons ago when I was a spotty teenager I built a six transistor kit radio (OC 44/45, OC81 push-pull output-you know the sort of thing). It worked very well for many years until one hot day in the garden one of the transistors just exploded-blew itself to pieces. Recently it was retrieved from the loft for restoration; problem-no circuit diagram. However, whilst recently surfing this excellent forum my beady eyes lit on a piece about the Alba 22 set; I noticed that the innards looked identical to my mongrel problem. Presumably this manufacturer had found a way of marketing more circuits via hobbyists. I have also noticed strong family resemblances between other sets with different names ie. Ferranti U1015 and EKCO U332 and Philips B4G17U and Stella ST154U. Was this a common phenomenon? Does anyone out there know of any other such examples?

13th Dec 2006, 11:33 am	#2
Tom_I Heptode Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: North Herts. UK. Posts: 549	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" Badge engineering was commonplace among the larger manufacturers, particularly in the transistor era. As you have already noted, many Philips models had a Stella equivalent, usually with trim differences, and with the Stella being a little bit cheaper. Similarly with Bush and Murphy. Even the "iconic" Bush TR130 also appeared as the Murphy B818, though in this case the Murphy was the upmarket version. And over at the British Radio Corporation, or EMI or Thorn, or whatever they called themselves, there were Ferguson and Ultra models which were equivalent, and by the mid-70s the brands HMV, Ferguson and Marconiphone were virtually interchangeable. I bought an HMV model 2182 in 1974, and it also exists as the Ferguson 3182 and the Marconiphone 4182, though this relationship of model numbers does not hold up in all cases. This is without manufacturers who supplied retailers with "own brand" models. The Perdio PR36 "Fanfare" which makes an occasional appearance on this forum also came branded "Westminster" from Currys, and "Spinney" from Littlewoods. And the Perdio PR25, much maligned for its appearance, could be had in kit form from Laskys as the Realistic Seven. Yes, they were all at it. Tom

13th Dec 2006, 2:48 pm	#3
batterymaker1 Heptode Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. Posts: 674	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" I've noticed a few kit radios in Radio Constructor that smack of the more common Defiant transistor sets.

15th Dec 2006, 12:14 am	#4
plumbweiss Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Manchester, UK. Posts: 157	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" Perhaps the most confusing but popular radio is with the Pilot Little Maestro Bakelite, the mould dies were sold off after the war and many dealers sold these cases in kits, meaning lots of identical looking (but very different internally) radios..I have several but not an original Pilot! Plessey's, as OEM extraordinaire, of course made complete radios, TVs, telephones etc all under other peoples names...something that is very commonplace today with the Chinese OEMs making most 'branded' consumer goods seen in the UK. It's all set to continue as consumer electronics manufacturers continue to get bigger but fewer.

20th Jun 2007, 10:23 pm	#5
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" I have been looking at some old issues of Practical Wireless and have noted several concerns that issued these kits based around the 'Little Maestro' type case. I also noted one sold by Radio & TV Components (Acton) Limited that is a 3 valve + metal rect (2x VR65, VT52) in a case that looks distinctly like a GEC. The problem with those radio kits is that they all varied so much in content depending on what had been bought surplus. Some have a miniature transformer for the heaters wheras others resort to the usual ballast resistor, probably due to the valve types in use. Did only Premier mark the dials with their monniker? I had one (not by Premier) that was a pretty crude 'superhet'.

21st Jun 2007, 8:07 am	#7
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" This thing of mine fed RF to a mixer/osc stage direct. The 4**Khz result being fed to a regenerative detector. The level of regen preset by a trimmer at the back of the case. To get R4 on Long Wave the set would howl on more local broadcasts so you had to take the thing off the shelf to tweak the trimmer. The 3 valve TRF from Radio & TV Components (Acton) Ltd is in a case like the GEC BC6245. Anybody got one of them? I find these kit radios very interesting. There are others out there I would like to discuss that are not within this topic.

21st Jun 2007, 8:22 am	#8
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" Several Dansette and Perdio radios were sold in kit form by the likes of R&TVC and Henry's Radio back in the 60s and 70s. Both firms, as many will know, used to advertise their wares in Radio Constructor, Practical Wireless, and other magazines.

22nd Jun 2007, 8:29 pm	#9
Neil Purling Nonode Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,087	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" The Co-Op Defiant brand valve radio sets: Are they by Plessey?

26th Jun 2007, 10:42 am	#10
Paul_RK Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Fakenham, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 4,259	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" At least the vast majority of them were. Plessey-built sets were released under quite a few other brands both before the launch of Defiant and after WWII (the EMI marques, Regentone, store exclusives, etc.), but Defiant was much their largest outlet. Paul

26th Jun 2007, 12:28 pm	#11
Sideband Dekatron Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK. Posts: 7,580	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" I've got one of the kit sets branded 'Premier'. It's a white version of the 'Little Maestro' cabinet that was popular in the 50's/early 60's. The circuit seems to be based on the 'Repanco SH4', which was presumably available to home constructors to promote the use of their coils and IFt's. I presume Premier simply marketed the kit and were allowed to put their name on the dial. The radio is actually quite good and uses standard octal valves in a conventional superhet circuit. Rich. __________________ There are lots of brilliant keyboard players and then there is Rick Wakeman.....

26th Jun 2007, 2:30 pm	#12
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" Defiant were the greatest example of Badge Engineering you're likely to find. I've opened Defiant stuff and found.. Plessey Kit. Bush/Murphy stuff. Some Philips kit. Some KB stuff and more... What they did in the 1960's was buy 'Last Years Model', badge it Defiant and sell it at the Co-op. Some were actually sold as the Co-op brand, rather than Defiant. With the co-op divvy's etc, I am surprised there are not more about! Cheers, Steve P __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

26th Jun 2007, 6:14 pm	#13
Brian R Pateman Nonode Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Lake District, Cumbria (CA20) - UK Posts: 2,136	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" The "Defiant" brand name is significant for the co-operative movement. The major manufacturers objected to the Co-0p's payment of the "divvy" to its members. They claimed that this was effectively a discount and enabled the Co-Op to undercut the manufacturers' appointed dealers. The Co-op therefore commissioned their own sets from the likes of Plessey and had the chassis put into a variety of wooden cabinets from their own cabinet makers. Hence the name "Defiant"! Regards, __________________ Brian

26th Jun 2007, 6:59 pm	#14
plumbweiss Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Manchester, UK. Posts: 157	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" Yeah I love this tale, maybe we'll learn of similar, more modern shenanigans in years to come? I think maybe the Pilot bakelite cases were also sold empty, allowing constructors to built what ever they liked into them! Hence the variation.

28th Jun 2007, 12:52 pm	#15
Studio263 Octode Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hampshire, UK. Posts: 1,578	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" There was a Grundig dual standard monochrome TV sold here in the mid 60's with a Plessey chassis in it, it's in R+TV S if you want to see it, I don't know if any have survived. It's sure to be a crushing disappointment if you do discover one, imagine removing the back expecting to find some baroque Continental masterpiece only to find a big dollop of British grey porridge instead.

28th Jun 2007, 2:45 pm	#16
howard Nonode Join Date: May 2005 Location: Godalming, Surrey, UK. Posts: 2,593	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" Hello, In the 1960s, badge engineering of transistor sets was very common. Bush and Murphy sets often shared the same chassis, likewise PYE, Ekco and Ferranti, Perdio and EAR etc., KB and RGD, Philips, Cossor, Stella and PYE, GEC, Sobell and Masteradio, ... Howard

7th Jul 2007, 2:27 pm	#17
Vectamart Pentode Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ventnor, Isle of Wight, UK. Posts: 141	Re: Radio "Badge Engineering" When I was in the TV rental business during the late 1970s, we purchased huge numbers of Co-op and Defiant badged sets from a wholesaler in Stratford Upon Avon. These included monochrome 19" sets fitted with the Rank-Bush-Murphy A640 dual standard chassis as well as the more modern 20" 'square screen' version and the single standard chassis derived form the same series. We also had loads of Co-op 19" colour sets that were a dead ringer of the Murphy version in everything but name, fitted with the A823 single chip decoder chassis and its larger brother the Co-op 2201, that was identical to the Bush CTV184. These sets were a nightmare because the tuning was very critical with no AFC; it was almost impossible to set the tuning so as to get a reliable colour picture without the annoying vision buzz on the sound. A pity really, because they were reasonably reliable in most other ways.