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Old 16th Nov 2017, 9:40 pm   #1
Cobaltblue
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Default How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

I have just taken delivery of a Cossor 512.

I have not had a chance to have it appart yet but although its a 1953 set a full 5 years before Philips took over this set bears a lot of Philips style features.

I have quite a lot of documentation of the period and there is not much indication of any close co-operation but this set makes me think that there was at least some.

The case is very Philips like as is the Chassis.

Even the clips that the back screws to are typical Philips of the period.

It's possible that Cossor were "buying in" some models

Although this set is early 50's and I would expect to be common this set is considerabley less common than most 50's Cossor sets which in itself is a bit of a mystery.

Any information gratefully receeived

Cheers

Mike T
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 11:46 am   #2
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

It's difficult to saying using the pointers that you mention - not that I could do better mind. I'm guessing by that time, just as in the motor industry now, many manufacturers were buying in parts rather than make them in house, so there was a degree of commonality. The days of HMV making virtually everything in their sets were long gone for sure. So, that could be the reason why they look similar, otherwise as you pose, there could have been some tie up prior to the official take-over by Philips, although I'm somewhat sceptical about that, certainly as long as five years before. As for the set looking very 'Philips', I can see what you mean, but it also looks very 'Cossor' of that era too. A lot of the sets in the 50s had gone towards that - dare i say it - ugly, utilitarian, plain look, it was the fashion of the day.

Maybe the book 'The Setmakers' can throw some light on it. Interesting.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 12:47 pm   #3
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

The Cossor 950 and 951 were last TV sets made by the old Cossor company, definitely no Philips design influences in those. However, I do have a Cossor 950 service manual and one can see the hand of Philips by how the circuit diagram was drawn. Same goes for the very last radios and radiograms which were designed by Cossor, the later service manuals have that Philips look about them.

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Old 17th Nov 2017, 12:56 pm   #4
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
A lot of the sets in the 50s had gone towards that - dare i say it - ugly, utilitarian, plain look, it was the fashion of the day.
Some of the plain look was probably to keep the price down with PT being a considerably percentage of the sets cost.
The other was the wanting by the public of something bright in the house to get away from the dark browns and dark greens that many homes had been decorated with. The 50’s introduced a lot more colour choices, reflected in plastic cabinet designs of sets, the country had gone through a decade of hardship and wanted some brightness.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 1:03 pm   #5
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

i see that the Cossor 512 still used all Cossor valves (141TH, 171DDP, 451PT & 311SU), these valves all had Philips equivalents so its possible they were "re-badged" Philips valves. No doubt a close inspection of the valve(s) internal construction would answer that question.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 1:25 pm   #6
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

According to Gracies guide, Cossor valve were taken over by EMI in 1949 and continued to supply Cossor.
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/A._C._Cossor

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/EMI
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 1:44 pm   #7
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

I have no specific knowledge of the Cossor/Philips relationship, but my experience is that technical or marketing collaboration, sometimes over a period of many years, can be the precursor to a merger or acquisition.

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Old 17th Nov 2017, 1:55 pm   #8
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

@Mike, when you get the back off, look for unfathomably bonkers mechanics. If found then yes, there is a real Philips influence.

As for the style of cabinet, I think there are a number of similarly styled cabinets, such as Philco and Radio Rentals as well as small outfits like Champion so any resemblence to Philips is probably just coincidence.

TTFN,
Jon
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 5:27 pm   #9
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

I think Philips only took over the Radio and TV side of Cossor.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 5:43 pm   #10
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

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Originally Posted by peter_sol View Post
I think Philips only took over the Radio and TV side of Cossor.
Yes, the rest of Cossor was bought by Raytheon in 1961

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Raytheon_Manufacturing_Co
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 7:06 pm   #11
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Cossor and Philips certainly shared transistor-radio designs into the early-1960s: my paternal grandmother had a Cossor CR1310 radio and my parents a Philips L2G41T

Both were identical inside - and actually made by Plessey!
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 7:16 pm   #12
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvistor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
A lot of the sets in the 50s had gone towards that - dare i say it - ugly, utilitarian, plain look, it was the fashion of the day.
Some of the plain look was probably to keep the price down with PT being a considerably percentage of the sets cost.
The other was the wanting by the public of something bright in the house to get away from the dark browns and dark greens that many homes had been decorated with. The 50’s introduced a lot more colour choices, reflected in plastic cabinet designs of sets, the country had gone through a decade of hardship and wanted some brightness.
Indeed, that's true.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 7:46 pm   #13
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
Cossor and Philips certainly shared transistor-radio designs into the early-1960s: my paternal grandmother had a Cossor CR1310 radio and my parents a Philips L2G41T

Both were identical inside - and actually made by Plessey!
Yes after 1958 its clear the model number changes to CR at the beginning of the model number. (CT for television) its all 100% Philips (and Plessey)

Yes I am aware of the Raytheon connection I have had several emails to my web site asking for Cossor Radar and Avionics approvals etc

I have always directed such enquiries to Raytheon who have always been most helpful.

I wasn't thinking of the cabinet styling so much as the way the back is fitted on those horrible metal clips that are supposed to slide onto mouldings inside the cabinet usually broken this far down the road.

Another mystery (well to me anyway) is the 575 and the 575PC I need to get them side by side to see what the difference is if any, as this was released in 1958 I wondered if it might stand for Philips Cossor.

Thanks for all the comments so far

I will check out Dukes suggestion but so far it looks pretty conventional mechanically.

Cheers

Mike T
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 8:47 pm   #14
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Ekco used those horrible metal clips in their plastic and Bakelite cabinets, well similar.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 9:37 pm   #15
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

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Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post

Another mystery (well to me anyway) is the 575 and the 575PC I need to get them side by side to see what the difference is if any, as this was released in 1958 I wondered if it might stand for Philips Cossor.

Mike T
I had a Cossor 575PC and it used a single PCB for most of the circuitry. It also used a Plessey made VHF tuner unit (and a Plessey loudspeaker).

Maybe the "PC" suffix meant "Printed Circuit"?

The 575 featured in a Cossor brochure I have that also included some obviously Philips designed sets. So, it must have "bridged" the acquisition of Cossor Radio & Television Ltd, by Philips UK.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 10:30 pm   #16
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Cossor were pretty early adopters of printed circuits especially for Radio and as far as I know every new model after the 543 (1956) used Printed circuit boards.

The 575 appeared in this brochure (only a part shown) which is the last I have for Cossor numbered sets and is dated 1958.

Some sets in This brochure were from as early as 1955 (such as the 529).

Cheers

Mike T
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 11:04 pm   #17
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Cossor radiograms models 577 of 1959 and CR1500A of 1960. The former is mono and the latter is a sterogram. Definitely are Cossor designs and both receivers employ what appears to be a Philips FM tuner module.
The service information of the 577 is presented in the manner of the old Cossor company whereas the circuit diagram of the CR1500A looks and is of the Philips style of presentation that was current at the end of the fifties and early sixties. A crossover model?

DFWB.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 11:13 pm   #18
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

I suppose as the majority of the staff had not changed just the senior management there must have been a couple of years to make the swap.

It was probably easier to introduce those changes in the DO than production which would have lagged by at least a model year.

The more I have looked at the 512 however and taken on board some of the very helpful comments I think it is far less Philips inspired than my first impression.

Cheers

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Old 18th Nov 2017, 10:16 am   #19
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

I think it must have been a very fast take over. The 1959 Cossor television range had nothing in common with Philips, in fact the 950/951 were a bit nasty.

It must have been quite a shock to Philips to compare the 950 with it's then current 17TG100U series. They must have wanted to dump all the Cossor models ASAP.

Up to this point Cossor had produced some fine products but were caught up in the 1960/62 collapse of the industry that took so many good names with it.

I don't think Philips had any hand in pre 1960 models. John.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 11:30 am   #20
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Default Re: How much co-operation between Cossor and Philips before takeover

Hello,

Here are some scans of a Cossor sales leaflet, which includes a couple of pre-Philips Cossor radios, including the 575 (no mention of the "PC" model number suffix). It includes the Cossor CT1700U television, the Cossor version of the Philips 17TG100U. The Philips 17TG100U was released in 1959 (according to a provisional service sheet for it).

My Cossor service sheet for the 575 is dated September 1958, which is around the time of the sale of Cossor Radio & Television Ltd, to Philips UK. The service sheet shows no signs of any Philips influence.
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File Type: pdf Cossor sales leaflet-circa 1959 - 3.pdf (691.8 KB, 61 views)
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