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Old 9th Jan 2004, 6:11 pm   #21
AC/HL
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

I got my models mixed up earlier. I meant A823 not A640. Senility creeping in
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Old 9th Jan 2004, 9:31 pm   #22
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Coming slightly newer, what's the general opinion on the Thorn (Ferguson) TX9 and TX10 chassis?

I had a 14 " TX9 portable for many years - bought for me by my parents around the time Andre Previn was advertising them as " The best picture of all time " - so it was an early one. I think I sold it about 10 years ago because it didn't have remote control. It went wrong once under warranty (lost vert and horiz hold - an IC was replaced). Then a couple of years before I sold it, it refused to start up. 220K resistor in the PSU gone high - common problem apparently, due to the voltage accross it. I fitted a 120K and a 100K in series.

I have also had dealings with a couple of larger screen sets from the same era. I bought a second-hand ex-rental (Granada I think) 22 " TX9 or TX10 about 15 years ago - ultrasonic remote control model! This was moved on to my partner's sister in due course and apparently packed up about a year ago and was dumped. They'd given up with the remote a few years earlier.

I also fixed one for a friend a few years ago too - branded Logik but clearly a 26 " Fergie TX9/TX10. Duff line output transformer and a couple of high resistors in that area. This is still working now, although the tube is becoming soft so I think he'll replace it soon.

To my limited knowledge and experience, they were well made reliable sets that gave an excellent picture. They always seemed to stand out to me in the displays in places like Comet and Laskys.

The only niggle was that the AFC got a bit confused if the signal strength was poor, so the flap on the front was sometimes left open (switching off the AFC) when the loop aerial was used.

They were made in Portsmouth I believe, and were designed to compete with the invasion of far-eastern colour sets and be reliable (aiming at the rental trade I believe).
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Old 9th Jan 2004, 9:50 pm   #23
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Hi Paul, Both chassis realised when I was at Radio Rentals 1979-1980. Both excellant sets and both largly welcomed by the trade. The smaller screen TX9 had terrible problems with crow bar firing shattering the fuse. Various mods were bought out before the mk2 version came out which did away with the thyrister power supply and replaced with a smps. The larger tx10's were also very good.They had a few problems like Line output transistor failure and an odd video output fault but have proved them selves to be very long lived and reliable. The BBC liked them and used them as monitors, can't get a higher reccomendation than that! Paul if that set was a 26 " then it would have been a Tx10. A few othe makes of set also suffered strange tuning drift faults which meant leaving tuner draws open. This would be the last resort after changing tuner, tunibg voltage stabiliser etc!
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Old 9th Jan 2004, 10:11 pm   #24
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Hi all.

Best sets I ever worked on, and for reliability were the Mitsubishi Blue Diamond Tube range, of the Mid 80's.

Used to work for Mitsubishi at the time.
I can't say the same for the build quality though, most of my time was spent changing cabinets.

Of the old delta gun types though I have to say I prefered the G8's and A823 chassis.
Used to referb ex-rentals all the time.
Can't say the same for the G11, that dreadful reservoir cap and frame chip.

ITT CVC20/30 also a favourite.
Quite agree about the Crowbar on the TX9's

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Old 9th Jan 2004, 10:17 pm   #25
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Yes, the Thorn/Ferguson TX9 & TX10 chassis were very good (for their time). I graduated in 1979 and remember being interviewed at Thorn Consumer Electronics' Enfield and Gosport factories for engineering jobs there (lucky I didn't take any, as they were both closed within ten years!). At that time, the TX series was under development and they were still manufacturing the 9600 series (SYCLOPS!) and I had a tour around their development labs in Enfield. The TX9 & TX10 represented Thorn's effort to achieve a quantum leap improvement in the reliability and quality of their TV sets, which I think they did.

Thorn had a large market share for their Ferguson branded sets, but they also owned Radio Rentals, DER and Multibroadcast (as well as Rumbelows), which sold custom badged versions (e.g. Baird). Logik was a brand used by Currys or Dixons and I have also seen the Ultra brand resurrected and used on a TX10 set.

The TX9 was initially used in 14 and 16 inch sets, although it was also used up to 22 " sets (all 90 degree CRTs). As has been said, the TX9 Mark 1 used a thyristor power supply, which could be temperamental! The Mark 2 used a TDA4600 chip in a " proper " switch-mode circuit.

The TX10 was only used on 110 degree CRT sets (either Mullard " 30AX " or RCA " S4 " tubes). It was a very good chassis (there were three versions, which incorporated various developments, such as better IC's and a plastic chassis frame in the final version). It had good sensitivity and selectivity, picture geometry and picture size regulation. Subjectively, the pictures were very good (I have a 26 " Teletext TX10 in my collection). It was also produced with remote control, Teletext and " stereo " sound options. Several accessory kits offered audio/video in/out, HiFi audio amplifier with inbuilt speakers, etc. The final " luxury " TX10 set used the Mk 3 chassis, with SCART socket, frequency synthesis tuning and separate (free-standing) " stereo " speakers - in a " monitor " style cabinet.

Thorn's efforts came to nothing in the end, when the global scale of other manufacturers forced them to sell out to Thomson of France. Once this was done, it was all over after a few more years. What a shame! Thorn EMI itself sold off everything except TV rental and EMI music, then demerged itself back into Thorn (TV rentals) and EMI (music).
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Old 9th Jan 2004, 10:57 pm   #26
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Quote:
A few othe makes of set also suffered strange tuning drift faults which meant leaving tuner draws open. This would be the last resort after changing tuner, tunibg voltage stabiliser etc!
With the TX9/10 it wasn't drift (at least not in my experience). The AFC tuned for the sharpest picture, as it should, but with a weaker signal this also meant a more noisy picture and sometimes slight buzz on the sound. Leaving the drawer open meant you could tune for a less noisy and therefore more watchable picture with clearer sound.

Quote:
Thorn's efforts came to nothing in the end, when the global scale of other manufacturers forced them to sell out to Thomson of France.
I had a " Ferguson - Thompson Technology " set (about 22 " ) after the TX9/10. It was awful - the picture was too high and too wide, and the video was clearly at least partly AC coupled since it lightened dark pictures and darkened light ones. It came from Currys, and when I took it back after a few months to see if it they could fix it under guarantee, the engineer said they were all like that!
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Old 10th Jan 2004, 12:15 am   #27
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Quote:
(lucky I didn't take any, as they were both closed within ten years!).
Crikey ! Only 10 years

I don't suppose anyone in what remains of the British electronics industry would be confident that their job will exist in 3 years now! I have been made redundant 2 times in 2 years, both times because of commercial failures within the companies involved. I am happy where I am now (back with broadcast equipment) but I wasn't far off quitting the sector completely.

I think sadly there was inevitability about the failure of the domestic electronics industry, but I suspect poor build quality and especially bad management accelerated the decline. British engineering technical excellence always seems let down by short-term thinking " bean counter " lead management. Strangely, companies rarely seems to worry too much about high costs associated with over management and daft self defeating bureaucratic systems within the organisation


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Old 10th Jan 2004, 1:53 am   #28
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Hi Paul. If memory serves me right at Radio Rentals one of the many things we would set up on re conditioned BRC 3000's,8000,s etc would be the AFC on both electronic and mechanicle tuners. But I am not sure about the later tx9 or tx10. Of course the TX range were first to use a sawf filter in the IF,so I am not sure what if any afc circuitry was used on these. I think the new NICAM signal also had an adverse effect on afc on some of these earlier sets. Has anybody else had any experiance of this?

Turning back to Pye,as many of you may have noticed I have not said too many kind things about their colour efforts especially with there appalling cda boards which was small and thin and had 4x output valves with associated feed resisters squashed on it .Everybody else who used cda got it right except Pye.
But there was one exception from Pye in the 1970's which has been mentioned earliar.This was the small screen (18 " ) (713 chassis?). We had a few out and a mate also owned one. It gave good pictures and in all the years it never went wrong! And may still be working now
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Old 10th Jan 2004, 12:14 pm   #29
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's - Tx9/10 Pye 713

We have a TX10 here at home that has given trouble-free running since new - soldered DJ on crystal when it was about 6 months old. They arrived just as I got out of the game - I used to work for Thorn then.
'Fraid I never liked the little Pyes - always seemed cheap and nasty. The little G8 of the same appearance was much better.
CDA panels - the later G6s used to cook and become conductive as well!
The first colour set I worked on was a (pre-Thorn) Baird - a very well built beast - model was 700, IIRC. My stereo system still lives in a console cabinet from one of these

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Old 10th Jan 2004, 6:54 pm   #30
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

talking of Pye i think it was their capacitor that gave the Philips G11 a bad name. Not riveted properly i recall the resultent arcing use to kick up the voltage high enough to crack the tube in some cases.

I think Sanyo eventually took over the Pye TV factory and legend has it the new Japanese Bosses were horrified to see women soldiering TV panels while drinking tea and eating sticky doughnuts.
 
Old 11th Jan 2004, 1:50 am   #31
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

That smoothing block on the G11'S certainly did cause a few problems, usually taking out the line output transister and frame output ic. But once these problems were sorted they did give good pictures as long as you were careful with the contrast control. I think the top three large screen ctv's, for picture quality, from this generation of sets were the:
1 Decca 100, Brilliant picture (for a 20ax tube) reasonably reliable, good sound with good cabinet and not bad to work on.
2 Thorn Tx10 Reasonable pictures good reliability and ok to work on.
3 G11 Good picture not so reliable but ok once smoothing block problem sorted.Not to bad for working on.
I to have heard a few storeys about the the Pye Lowestoft factory including fights across factory floor where rival groups of workers threw line output valves at each other. When the stores ran out apparently valves would be ripped out of the backs of newly assembled sets! It is hardly surprising that Pye were in such a state and may explain why the Pye CT205 suffered so many problems.
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Old 12th Jan 2004, 2:05 am   #32
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As we have been talking about tellies from the late 1970's there is one set that rises way above the rest in the family of smaller sets including the tx9 . It was of course the Philips KT3 chassis. It was the first set to boast a power supply that even if you stuck a nail across its output it would just shut down. Can you imagine that? no smoke, sparks,or loud explosive bangs This was down to a new chopper power supply and was a major step forward from the one used in the earliar BRC3000/3500. These sets proved to be very reliable superb to work on with great pictures. Even today 25 years on there are a few around still with A1 pictures. The main failure on this set was the tripler and occasionally the BU208A line output transistor. So if you come across one of these they are well worth any effort to restore them. You could call them a (not so modern) classic.
Finally in this months TV mag there is an interesting article on a new family of large screen CRT's. They have gone back to using 110-125 degree deflection instead of 90 degrees. LG Philips say they have overcome many of the problems that beset earliar large screen wide deflection angle tubes such as blurrring, poor convergance and purity around the edge of the display.
These new tubes will enable setmakers to produce new sets which appear to be little deeper than the new flat panel (liquid crystal or plasma) sets whilst benefiting from the superior display and reliability of our good old friend the CRT. So thermal technology may still be with us for a few more years yet.
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Old 12th Jan 2004, 9:01 am   #33
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

I wonder how much longer the CRT will last in TVs and monitors. I'm watching this on a very nice 20 " LCD (LaCie photon20vision, 1600x1200). All the benefits of LCD and very few of the problems. Expensive but rather less than a 20 " LCD telly which has much lower resolution - why??

In John LewiS's TV department recently there were loads of LCD TVs, from 14 " to 22 " . Quite a lot of big plasmas and a diminishing number of CRTs. Apparently 32 " LCDs are either here or very close. Just a matter of price reduction to finally kill the CRT. Ultra wide angle CRTs seem like a last dying gasp.

You may now burn me at the stake for heresy.
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Old 12th Jan 2004, 9:57 am   #34
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

[Click-click-click] Darn, lighter's empty

Funny enough I spent frustrating saturday morning shopping for a new colour telly. What I don't understand is :-

1) LCD tellies all cost massive amounts compared to higher resolution LCD monitor. Why ?

2) In the " old days " , the bigger the screen the more it cost. So why are 6-10 " colour tellies ~£180 ?

3) My 19 " 1967 pye (mono) has a flatter face tube than some of the models on display? And why is it's cabinet depth shorter than a modern 20 " given 35 years have passed and in America they had developed prototype 140 and 150 (!) degree tubes by the start of the 60's?

4) Has anyone actually seen a decent picture on a projection set ?

5) Is there any technical reason why a set *HAS* to be in matt silver

6) Can the convergence of modern sets be adjusted ? If so why can't this be done during production ?

7) Do they train staff anymore ? e.g. " Why is this Sony set £20 more than this Sony set ? " " Dunno. " . [My only theory was it was the cost incured in having to remove the second SCART socket!]. Incidently both WEGA tubes and both showing white areas with red edge to left and blue to the right

So, could we perhaps extend the topic to include what old set would you choose to use as a daily usage set, bearing in mind spares, reliability, ease of service etc ? I've heard a number of people praising the Decca Bradford chassis.

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Old 12th Jan 2004, 10:27 am   #35
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

A bit OT but does anyone know how they make flat sceeen WEGA tubes so that don't implode? I always understood that the front glass needed to be curved (spherical on most CRTS, cylindrical in Trinis) to resist the many tons of air presure.
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Old 12th Jan 2004, 10:41 am   #36
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

I assume they make the glass a lot thicker and curve it a bit on the inside.

Our 28 " widescreen WEGA is about double the weight of the regular 28 " widescreen JVC it replaced, and I assume the extra weight is due to the extra glass needed.
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Old 12th Jan 2004, 1:22 pm   #37
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's slightly O/T

those were the days..taking the rimband off a 1950s telly tube and taking it to the local open space with shelter facilities and good aim with a rock ...would be classed as a WMD today.
 
Old 12th Jan 2004, 2:41 pm   #38
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

I had access to the old and abandoned EMI Central Research building before it was demolished. Those who believe in ghosts might have seen Schoenberg etc stalking the corridors. I would have loved to have taken a pre-rimband CRT a few floors up the fire escape and chucked it over the edge. Was too busy salvaging all sorts of intersting stuff to get round to it.
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Old 12th Jan 2004, 10:29 pm   #39
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Quote:
So, could we perhaps extend the topic to include what old set would you choose to use as a daily usage set, bearing in mind spares, reliability, ease of service etc? I've heard a number of people praising the Decca Bradford chassis
I have 2 in regular use, neither particularly old. The first is a Philips KT3 chassis. It gives reasonable performance, as it was re-tubed at some point in its history.

The second is a Salora J chassis, I use this as my main TV, and it is fed from an On Digital box. Although it is the butt of friends jokes, as far as I am concerned it still gives a reasonably sharp picture. The On Digital box resizes the pictures so they can be made to fit into the " correct " aspect ratio. As stated elsewhere here, when the software transmitted comes up to scratch then I may consider updating the hardware


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Old 13th Jan 2004, 12:45 am   #40
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Default Re: Favourite Colour tv's

Hi Guys.

Don't often look in this section.

Picking up on PPPPenguins point about flat screen CRT and implosion, I have to say that Paul Stenning is absolutely correct. The glass on these CRT's is very thick but although it is flat on the outside, there is a curve on the inside. On some sets you can actually see the curve if you look into the black border around the screen.

Another point by Duke_Nukem, on most modern sets, the convergence cannot be adjusted. The CRT and scan coils are manufactured as a matched pair and should give very little convergence error. The exception is projection TV (no I've never seen a really good picture on a projection set). Usually convergence on these is done electronically via a service mode and the TV generates a test grid. The convergence is adjusted at spot points and should give very good results. Some of the earlier projection sets I repaired had a convergence board behind a panel in the front with about 50 pots to twiddle.

Favourite sets? Probably the Philips K35. Had one for 15 years with only one failure...o/c feed resistor to frame o/p stage.....not bad for a 'modern' set!

Rich

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