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Old 6th Jun 2018, 9:55 am   #21
Alvin
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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Forgive them for they know not what they do..
More like they know not what they hear
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 10:10 am   #22
lesmw0sec
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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Given the serious lack of copper-mines in the UK, I think you'd find it rather hard to produce speaker-cable (or any other cable) that was entirely UK-sourced...
We have reserves of copper here on Anglesey. The mine (Parys) is dormant at present - probably awaiting a hike in the price!

Les.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 10:33 am   #23
John M0GLN
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

Not Yesteryear but may be of interest,

https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/gbr/e...speaker-cables

John
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 10:34 am   #24
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

I have to admit that in the past (when I didn't know any better) I have spent money on expensive speaker cables. I think what is telling though is that I never kept any of them for very long. They were poorly constructed in most cases.

Then I discovered that low impedance is the most important aspect of a good cable for hifi.

The Qed is a good cheap cable. That was all I needed . . . . Still tempted to give bell wire a go.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 11:44 am   #25
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

My late father liked good quality audio devices, but was certainly no audiophool, In the 1960s he just used 2-core mains flex (looked to be about 1.5mm^2) to link his Leak Stereo 20 to the speakers. Later on (Quad transistorised amplifiers) he used QED 79 strand cable , but never anything more fancy/expensive than that.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 11:58 am   #26
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

The signal voltage drop across a speaker cable depends on the impedance of the speaker itself, and that's typically far from straightforward, soo it's not surprising that different cables sound different.

For example, the attached wildly varying impedance plot of a Bowers & Wilkins 802D speaker against frequency suggests that the combined output impedance of the amplifier and cable needs to be near zero if the frequency response is not to be influenced by those mountainous speaker impedance variations from 3 ohms to over 20 ohms. Impedance modulus is the solid line. I suppose ideally we should use the same cable impedance as was used by the manufacturer in the development of the speaker. If Bowers & Wilkins had used a bellwire connection, then that would be the right choice for the listener to get the same result at home. But I'm confident they didn't do that and probably used a more substantial connection; but what?


My own solution was to use standard 2.5 sq mm twin&E mains cable. I was able to include the cabling in the wiring schedule for the contractor when our living room was wired, so it's sitting in the walls and above the ceiling rather than trailing across the floor. That was over 40 years ago and of course it's still going strong.

A while ago I checked the overall system frequency response using a test disc and, measuring across the speaker terminals with the speakers connected, found the electrical response flat within 1dB to 18kHz. That's satisfyingly good, and a lot better than my ears!


Martin
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:14 pm   #27
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

Taking a broader philosophical view, I think that the speaker cable/general audiophilia thing is a good example of linked trends- the recognition that an increasing section of the population had increasing disposable income, and the recognition that generating peer insecurity was an excellent way of prising that money off people. First the motorcycling, then the cycling worlds were changed in character by marketing campaigns from utility transport to carbon-fibre and titanium fetishism- or run the risk of having your "mates" laugh at you- with consequent exponentiation of expenditure. Speaker cables went from "adequate" and sensible, say typical 2-core mains cable competently terminated, to exercises in, "look, I spent much more than you, therefore my system must be better...." And reflect on the simple brilliance of the push to bi-wire- double the profit straight away.

There was an article in one of the hi-fi comics long ago reviewing the then new, bi-wireable LS3/5As where the reviewer's verbal gymnastics and self-contradicting tail-chasing in trying to say, "they're the same as the originals.... but different- you need to buy them...." were somewhat amusing.

Forums like this are a refreshing sanity-check and grounding (!) in reality- but that's probably a consequence of dealing with items that are long off the market. Any forum dealing in current merchandise is at the mercy of lurking salesmanship and pseudo-tech BS.

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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:31 pm   #28
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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... For example, the attached wildly varying impedance plot of a Bowers & Wilkins 802D speaker against frequency suggests that the combined output impedance of the amplifier and cable needs to be near zero if the frequency response is not to be influenced by those mountainous speaker impedance variations from 3 ohms to over 20 ohms ...
The 20 ohms isn't the problem of course. The problem is the 3 ohms. But even then a 5 m length of 0.75 mm2 mains flex (i.e. quite thin stuff) would only have a total resistance of about 0.22 ohms which would comfortably satisfy the 10% rule. I guess the lesson is that ordinary copper wire really does have a resistance which is 'near zero'.

If we look at a rather easier vintage load, say the Spendor BC1s whose impedance curves are about half way down Troels Gravesen's page, we find that their impedance stays above 5 ohms over almost the entire audible frequency range. In that case 5m of 0.34 mm2 lead, which really does look like bell wire, wouldn't break the 10% rule significantly.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:35 pm   #29
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

I just use scavenged mower cable for my speakers and to hell with it! My system sounds decent enough to me.

Regards,
Paul
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:50 pm   #30
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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Forgive them for they know not what they do..
I'm afraid the ones motivating it know exactly what they do.... they're after your money, well, anyone's money.

I just feel very sorry for the mere followers who don't know what is real. Sadly some people supposed to be intelligent also fit into this category. Do they switch their critical thinking capabilities off when hifi comes up?

David
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:58 pm   #31
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

When I was a youngster, my father's Eagle International speakers were connected to his Eagle International amplifier down the length of a 25 foot long lounge using bell wire.

As a fledgling hi-fi nerd, I discovered QED 79 strand and, having bought some for my own system, I bought him a couple of lengths for Christmas one year. Having installed it, three things became apparent:

(1) It was an absolute sod to get round the amp and speakers' screw terminals
(2) The system sounded far better, and the bass control could be reduced from '+2' to '0' but gave the same bass output.
(3) The turntable input was no longer drowned out by LW radio pickup if you tried to play a record after dark.

Yes, I despair as much as anyone regarding speaker cables that cost £40,000 for a 3m pair (Nordost ODIN 2 in case you were wondering!) but bell wire? No thanks.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:59 pm   #32
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

Quad once famously used lawnmower cable at one of the Heathrow shows. Apparently they'd forgot to bring any speaker cables so someone was dispatched to a local B&Q and came back with bright orange lawnmower cable.

Everyone wanted to know what was the 'special audiophile' cable they were using
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 1:11 pm   #33
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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Is anything HiFi still made in the UK ?
You can always rely on Linn Products - a precision engineering company that manufactures hi-fi and audio equipment including the iconic Linn Sondek LP12 turntable.

Based at Glasgow Rd, Waterfoot just outside Glasgow.

As the blurb says "Every single system is built by hand in our Glasgow factory and bears the name of the person who made it. It’s built with precision and pride, designed for the future and engineered to extraordinarily tight tolerances."

https://www.linn.co.uk/about
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 1:13 pm   #34
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

When I wired a hifi many years ago I just bought white mains cable the same size as lawn mower cable. It worked very well.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 1:29 pm   #35
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

I am going to stay with qed 79 strand, simply because it has excellent flexibility, and easy to work with.

I wonder if bell wire was around in Paul Voigt's day ?
The Voigt domestic corner horn is a speaker I would love to see and hear. Sadly there is so few of them still around, and those that do still exist, most suffer from wood lice.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 1:34 pm   #36
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

CPC do 79 strand for 50 pence a metre. A drum of that lasted me for years!

http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/79-...le/dp/CBBR0412

It's nearly 2.5mm CSA. The original QED 79 strand that I bought back in 1991 feels thicker, but I note the stuff they sell today is 2.5mm, so perhaps there's more insulation... It's 4 times the price of the CPC stuff though.

For pro sound installations I've seen much thinner cable carrying much louder signals over much longer distances. I wouldn't like to say the wire makes no difference at all, but there are certainly much more significant contributing factors to the sound you hear in a studio or theatre

At work, for mains cables we use the bright orange stuff for most of our installations - it makes the mains cables easier to see in a packed equipment bay. I often rescue it when areas are decommissioned as I like to use it for mains installations in my workshop. The longer lengths make superb speaker cables - and they've already been run in
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 1:44 pm   #37
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
Given the serious lack of copper-mines in the UK, I think you'd find it rather hard to produce speaker-cable (or any other cable) that was entirely UK-sourced...
But we do have a few silver mines, and silver is a better conductor than copper
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 2:54 pm   #38
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I used Maplin 'speaker cable only because it was cheap and flexible and I wanted to pin it under shelving (using drawing pins), ordinary mains cable is difficult to pin without shorting out the conductors. It makes no difference being 'speaker cable. After all it is only the resistance that matters, flexibility and "pin ability" are bonuses.
 
Old 6th Jun 2018, 3:20 pm   #39
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

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Originally Posted by gramophone1 View Post
Is anything HiFi still made in the UK ?
Off the top of my head, the following all still manufacture in the UK:

Linn
Naim Audio
Michell
SME
Avid
Leema
Rega
Garrard
Meridian
Mowgan Audio
Art Audio
Neat Audio
Kudos
Proac
Falcon Acoustics
ATC
PMC
B&W (800 Series)
Croft
Acoustic Energy (Reference Series)
Music First Audio
Longdog Audio
The Funk Firm
Volt
Whest Audio
Graham Slee
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 3:37 pm   #40
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Default Re: Speaker Cable of Yesteryear

Tron Electric (GT Audio)
Audio Note UK
Evolution Audio/Wychwood Audionics (cables, mains conditioning)
Loricraft (now part of SME)
World Designs (build and test)

I'm not sure where the Living Voice stuff is made these days.

Cheers,

GJ
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