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Old 21st Jun 2016, 12:30 pm   #1
'LIVEWIRE?'
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Question 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

I'm currently listening to this 1948 sitcom, and am wondering on what type of equipment this would have been recorded 68 years ago. This was surely before the days of tape recorders, although wire recorders did, AFAIK, exist at that time. The recording was made at the Victoria Theatre, Manchester, if I heard the announcer correctly, and the quality sounded OK, given it's age. Does anyone know what equipment was used in those days?
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Old 21st Jun 2016, 4:04 pm   #2
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

Records (discs) most likely, though if it was recorded in a theatre maybe sound film (optical sound track).

Did anyone produce a film based sound only recorder? It must be technically possible but I suppose discs would be less fuss- no developing needed.

I thought tape recorders were around by then- weren't they a WW2 German development?
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Old 21st Jun 2016, 4:05 pm   #3
Mike. Watterson
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

1948? Probably on 78s.
Real tape recorders only just existed, the first decent tape based one probably the German AEG with AC bias, 1941.

The first battery portable spring/clockwork motor was German in 1949, by Maihak. So no doubt mains models did exist in 1948. I think Germany was first with flexible oxide coated tape and AC bias.
An early BBC machine used steel tape!

However 78 recording was practically HiFi from mid 1930s.
RTE (Radio Athlone / Eirean) used 78 recording long after the Beeb was routinely using EMI machines.


By mid 1950s there was even a German spring driven battery valve portable machine for home users:
Here is one
http://www.butoba.net/homepage/federwerk.html
Certainly mains machines much earlier.
Actually Sony's first transistor portable tape recorder was also spring driven motor (often called "clockwork").

Edit
1950 Maihak using separate PSU (mains or vibrator), spring (clockwork) motor for professional use.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/maihak_...ofon_mmk1.html

1944 AEG tape recorder with AC bias etc
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/aeg_ton..._sb_1_sb1.html

Early 1950s EMI "Portable". Really needs two people and mains only. BBC used these.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/emi_por...corder_tr.html

I have an EMI 1955 "Portable". I can barely lift it! BBC used these.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/emi_por...der_tr50b.html

Last edited by Mike. Watterson; 21st Jun 2016 at 4:18 pm.
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Old 21st Jun 2016, 4:10 pm   #4
60 oldjohn
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

If it was not recorded on a wire recorder. It may have been recorded at 78rpm using a few records per show.

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Old 21st Jun 2016, 4:17 pm   #5
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

The Beeb were still using disc recorders well into the 50s. It wasn't normal to prerecord or repeat shows at that time, so many of the recordings which have survived were made by BBC Transcription Services for use by foreign broadcasters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Tr...ption_Services
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Old 21st Jun 2016, 4:23 pm   #6
Mike. Watterson
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

I agree it was very likely 78s. Though German type tape machines technically existed, 1948. Too early for BBC tape recording for distribution or archive.
It would not have been a wire recorder.
Wire recorders were horrid, only used by reporters and dictation.
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Old 21st Jun 2016, 4:27 pm   #7
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

Wire recorders were not really up to a standard where their recordings were ever suitable to 'entertainment' recordings although fine for news. It is almost certain that this was recorded on a disc. To increase the play time 16" discs were used professionally and, as the use of diamond cutters and vinyl improved post WWII, some discs were cut at 33.33 r.p.m. - though many were still resin or acetate coated aluminium discs running at 78.

An optical sound recorder system was used by the BBC for a while but, I believe it was out of use by the post-war era. The Philips-Miller system used a clear acetate film base coated with black gelatine. A wedge shape cutter moved 'hill & dale' in the gelatine this gouged out a groove in the gelatine proportional in width with the depth of cut (due to the wedge shaped cutter). In effect it produced, mechanically, an optical variable area soundtrack which could be played back by a standard optical sound head, e.g Western Electric 1A. This obviated all the chemical processing and 'light valve' method of producing a conventional film optical track.

The 'band saws' i.e. the metal tape tape machines were the Blattnerphone and the Marconi-Stille .

Last edited by Nicklyons2; 21st Jun 2016 at 4:31 pm. Reason: punctuation
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Old 22nd Jun 2016, 11:11 am   #8
Mike. Watterson
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklyons2 View Post
An optical sound recorder system was used by the BBC for a while but, I believe it was out of use by the post-war era. The Philips-Miller system used a clear acetate film base coated with black gelatine.
...
The 'band saws' i.e. the metal tape tape machines were the Blattnerphone and the Marconi-Stille .
Thanks for those two points.
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Old 22nd Jun 2016, 3:51 pm   #9
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

This is along the lines of a question that I've been meaning to ask for some time but never got round to it.

As a particular example, I have the 78rpm "1951 Super rhythm-style series" number 27, Parlophone label, of 'The Saints Jazz Band' playing 'I want a girl, just like the girl that married dear old dad'. I was shocked (and pleased) to find a much extended version of this exact same recording on 'You Tube'. I was pleased, but also annoyed that I don't have this 'full' version on a 78, although it would have to have been on a 12 inch, and as far as I know they didn't do any of this series on 12 inch.

The question I'm asking is - what was the recording method/machinery used to make this original 'live' recording at the Royal Festival Hall, London, in 1951?

It must have been made on something other than a 78 master, as it's exactly the same recording on both versions, except that the 78 record version is shorter. The version on the original 78 record starts about a third of the way in on the 'You Tube' version, at the point where they're really 'warming up'! Is the 'You Tube' version taken from the original tape (or whatever recording format it was)?

This is a great version of the tune if you like this sort of thing - here's a link to the 'You Tube' extended version -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQbAnbPQfrY
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Old 22nd Jun 2016, 5:41 pm   #10
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

I'm pretty sure EMI were using tape by 1951.
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Old 22nd Jun 2016, 7:02 pm   #11
Mike. Watterson
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

Probably 1950. Absolutely by 1951.

Portable 78 recording used in more remote situations.
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Old 24th Jun 2016, 8:57 pm   #12
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Default Re: 'Over the Garden Wall' on Radio 4 Extra

During and after the war, the BBC used disc (direct cut nitrate), Philips-Miller and Marconi-Stille recording machines, partly for reasons of diversity of recording stock. The supply of steel tape (from Sweden) all but ceased on the outbreak of war, Philips-Miller film came from the USA after the fall of Holland and nitrate discs used aluminium cores (or sometimes steel).

The first use of coated tape in the BBC was replay of Continental tapes for the Third Programme, via two captured Magnetophon K7s. The BTR-1 appeared in 1948 and from that time on EMI gradually went over to tape for origination, although waxes were still being cut in parallel at Abbey Road in 1951. It took until the adoption of the LP format (October 1952) for wax to be finally supplanted.

The first operational use of tape for Variety programmes in the BBC was in 1950, but not until 1954 did tape become the routine medium, despite its obvious advantages for editing. Transcription Service started using tape for production quite early on, but favoured disc for long-term storage until customers' adoption of FM and stereo broadcasting became significant around 1960. Disc recording stayed in use for News and at some regional centres until the early 1960s. Hoffnung's Oxford Union speech (Dec '58) was recorded on nitrate disc for transmission and only unofficially on tape by the engineer on the van.

The programme in question would therefore most likely have been recorded on nitrate disc, a medium which, certainly on the BBC's own Type D system, was just as good as the tape of the time, until wear got at the disc.

The Marconi-Stille machines passed out of use in 1951 - Philips-Miller survived a few years longer, primarily for archiving of existing recordings - these sound a bit like 1950s 7 1/2 ips tape, in other words not bad at all.

Last edited by Ted Kendall; 24th Jun 2016 at 9:07 pm.
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